Legality Issues from Episode "His Way"

[marsh8472]

This is the episode where Vic hooks Odo up with Kira. He did it by fooling Odo into thinking Kira was a hologram and they were doing a practice date.

Here is the relevant dialogue from the episode:

VIC [OC]: I've done a complete overhaul on the Lola hologram or should I say the Kira hologram? I'm telling you, Odo, you're going to think she's the real thing. She walks like Kira, she talks like Kira.
ODO: Really? How did you manage to accomplish that?
VIC [OC]: I don't have time to explain now. I'll see you tonight, nine o'clock. That's twenty one hundred to you.
ODO: I know.
VIC [OC]: I'll see you then, pallie.
...
(toward the end of the date)
ODO: No, no, I meant it would be difficult for you to leave the holosuite.
KIRA: Why?
(The song finishes.)
ODO: It's complicated.
KIRA: Complicated to leave a holosuite? You make it sound like I'm a hologram.
ODO: Aren't you?
KIRA: Is that what you think?
ODO: Maybe you'd better tell her.
VIC: There's nothing to tell. I'm good, pallie, but I'm not that good. You've been dancing with the real McCoy.
ODO: You tricked me.
KIRA: And me.
VIC: Hey, I brought you two lovebirds together. That was the whole idea, wasn't it?

Luckily Odo acted like a gentleman during their date but what if he hadn't? Say during his frustration he turned Vic off and assaulted/killed Kira or did something else horrible. Kind of like when Worf destroyed Vic's bar during his moment of anger. Then afterward Odo finds out she was the real Kira who he never would have behaved that way around.

How would something like that play out legally? Who should be punished for whatever Odo does? Odo himself? Vic Fontaine since he's the one that fooled Odo? Bashir since it's his program? Felix because he designed Vic's character? Quark since they are his holosuites? Someone else? No one? I'd think someone should be libel for it otherwise it could open a door to legalize horrible acts on a holodeck

 

[JirinPanthosa]

That'd be a fascinating legal case.

In this case I don't think there was any risk. Odo does not have violent or dominant fantasies. In his wildest fantasies, Quark is legally arrested and convicted through due process.

Seems like depending on what intent they could prove it'd be anywhere from murder to negligent manslauhter on either or both.

Bashir or Quark may face criminal negligence and wrongful death damages, depending on whether Vic is legally deemed sentient.

That would be a great idea for a law procedural set in the Trekverse. A person programs a hologram to manipulate people into unknowingly killing each other.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

If things had gotten rough, couldn't Kira have simply turned off the program? That would prove to Odo that she was real.

 

[Tosk]

Who would be liable in that specific scenario? Odo.

Regardless of what some fictional person told him, he would be the one choosing to act. The setting gives no expectation of violence, so regardless of Vic's personhood, he couldn't know the outcome of his dissembling.

If it were a situation where violence or harm could be expected, (like if someone at a shooting range told someone else to shoot at a target that turned out to be a real person) then I would blame the person who lied about the target. If that person who misled was fictional and had no legal standing as a real being, I would blame the programmer.

 

[Triskelion]

I'm not a space lawyer, but...

Odo would be on the hook for murder since he is an individual under the law and committed the act. It wouldn't take a good lawyer to convince a jury there is something very iffy about the moral control of someone who kills a holographic substitute of a real person he is romantically interested in. No, he would be on the hook for it - whether it could be whittled down to negligent homocide or some other failure to adjudicate a full penalty.

Quark's insurance would likely have a clause of indemnity against any personal injury or death resulting from entering or using the holodeck, an agreement that must first be given before any authorized use of the holodeck. The same authorization would likely exempt the Holodeck manufacturers, programmers or service company any legal responsibility.

So you end up with Kira's loved ones and legal counsel filing a civil suit against Odo personally based upon Bajoran legal code and filed formally with Federation Starfleet (who are involved due to their appointing a non-Federation individual in the post of security of a Starfleet-run outpost). Now you're involving diplomatic consulates and inviting possible civil protests - for example, of threatening sector security by putting a Founder in charge of station security during a time of war. That one was always a bit of a sticky wicket.

The fact that the "holocharacter" was based on a real person in his daily life, compounded by his romantic feelings for her, does demonstrate a real will to kill despite his thinking it was a simulation only; a real threat that would be sufficient to warrant a restraining order beforehand; and afterward, possible state-authorized psychological evaluation; and/or a formal inquiry by an Admiralty Board, with possibility of immediate restriction, and the iniitating of a formal criminal investigation. He would be sitting in the slammer while the brass and Starfleet JAG office figured it all out.

Oh, it would be a mess, and it would most likely be Odo's head on the chopping block. But Sisko might also have to step down as Station Commander.

No Emissary, no victory. The war against the Dominion - and the Pah Wraiths - would be lost. A whole galaxy in flames.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

I have to disagree with you guys. At worst Odo would be charged with Involuntary Manslaughter, murder requires a purposeful, intentional act with malicious intent. First degree requires premeditation of that act. Voluntary manslaughter requires intent to kill or do serious bodily harm.

What would happen in real life if, in a play, somebody was handed a gun and told it was filled with blanks, so he ended up shooting his fellow actor for real? This is basically the same situation. And I imagine in a world where holodecks exist, people understand fantasies are not reality.

Arguing that killing a holodeck character indicates a real will to kill is like arguing any Grand Theft Auto player is a potential murderer.

 

[Tosk]

No Emissary, no victory. The war against the Dominion - and the Pah Wraiths - would be lost.

...Or, Odo decides to go home early due to the whole incident and the war ends earlier and with less bloodshed.

 

[kkt]

Even if Odo turned Vic's character off, the holosuite's safeties should still be active and preventing the persons inside from injuring each other. If Odo tried to turn the safeties off, Kira would turn them back on or end the program and thus reveal herself to be a person. The holosuite should be perfectly equipped to throw up a force field to prevent one person from inflicting hand-to-hand injuries on another just as well as preventing simulated weapons from inflicting real injuries.

Just on the legal question if a death did result, I agree with JirinPanthosa. If an actor making a movie shoots blanks at the bad guy and it turns out they're live rounds and he kills the other actor, he probably wouldn't even get manslaughter.

 

[Triskelion]

I have to disagree with you guys. At worst Odo would be charged with Involuntary Manslaughter, murder requires a purposeful, intentional act with malicious intent. First degree requires premeditation of that act. Voluntary manslaughter requires intent to kill or do serious bodily harm.

If the prosecution can prove Odo demonstrated tendencies toward violence against her personally or in general, then they can easily argue that such willful intent had been his purpose all along. At the very least he could be convicted of negligent homocide - for failing to confirm it was a hologram before willfully and soberly killing her. Add to this question his role as a Founder - and Murder One is most definitely on the table. All you have to do is convince the judge that he did it; that he knew what he was doing; and that his fantasy was a dress rehearsal for - the willful intent to carry it out in reality. Practicing to kill someone may not get a conviction under homocide - but it could fall under the purview, given the circumstance, of terrorism - as well as premeditated murder, intent to do harm, negligence, etc.

What would happen in real life if, in a play, somebody was handed a gun and told it was filled with blanks, so he ended up shooting his fellow actor for real? This is basically the same situation. And I imagine in a world where holodecks exist, people understand fantasies are not reality.

Well, those things do happen. For example with the case of Brandon Lee. At least there will be a criminal investigation. At most, this will go before a judge/jury, and they will weigh the character and situation accordingly. They will decide if it was done by accident, or purposefully. In the case of deliberately creating a situation that results in death - well, now anyone in the chain of events is going to be investigated for intention and responsibility to their safety obligations, etc. The justice system would need to determine whether it was intentional or not. Since it would be in a trial - there is at least a chance the chips could fall against someone: the perpetrator of the violence, the propmaster or armorer, the parent company, etc. They may determine it was a preventable death, they may find failure to follow safety or operational regulations or procedures, and they may hold the company liable. They might find criminal negligence - and lock someone up. They might find a conspiracy to commit murder - and lock up however many people were involved.

Arguing that killing a holodeck character indicates a real will to kill is like arguing any Grand Theft Auto player is a potential murderer.

Except here you have something extra: a dead body - and very possibly a crime.

Just on the legal question if a death did result, I agree with JirinPanthosa. If an actor making a movie shoots blanks at the bad guy and it turns out they're live rounds and he kills the other actor, he probably wouldn't even get manslaughter.

Well, there will be a police investigation. Possible charges could include Premeditated Murder and Criminal Neglect. If they determine it's an innocent accident, as was the case with Lee, then the next question is - whose job was it to check? The production company may be fined for negligence, and sued by the family, as happened with Lee's case.

In the case of a fictional Star Trek universe, you could write almost any outcome you wanted.

 

[Voth commando1]

Aside from that Odo would never have acted in the way described I imagine Quark's bar would have been free from any legal liability.

 

[gamer1]

Well, since we don't know Bajoran law it's hard to say, but in general in most countries, killing someone is a crime which require no intent to be convicted for, or at least some sort of Involuntary Manslaughter. I would venture to say Odo would get charged and convicted for Involuntary Manslaughter.

 

[Paradise City]

Naw, there'd be no legal problem. Even Quark probably has a "do it at your own risk" waiver put into his holosuite arrangements.

However poor Vittorio would probably wind up swimming with the fishes.

 

[SoullessMinion]

Naw, there'd be no legal problem. Even Quark probably has a "do it at your own risk" waiver put into his holosuite arrangements.

That would protect Quark from legal trouble (or being sued), but I think Odo could still be prosecuted. Maybe. Involuntary manslaugter sounds about right, but it depends on Bajoran law.

 

[Paradise City]

That would protect Quark from legal trouble (or being sued), but I think Odo could still be prosecuted. Maybe. Involuntary manslaugter sounds about right, but it depends on Bajoran law.

If he doesn't know she's a real person and he's been genuinely mislead, there shouldn't be a problem. It's an accident, essentially..

 

[SoullessMinion]

Hmm. Yeah, it's like actor shooting a prop gun loaded with live ammo without his knowledge. You've persuaded me!

 

[Nakita Akita]

I probably missed some part of the episode, but I thought that they were just having dinner, maybe dancing.
I think a bigger problem than what laws would be broken if he killed her, would be who would ever want to be anywhere near him if he just kills someone out of the blue who he is having dinner with?

 

[Jedman67]

Why did Quark get into trouble for "showcasing" holographic weapons, when no actual sales were taking place on DS9?

 

[Timo]

Trouble? Odo had nothing on him, Sisko had nothing on him, and even if Bajorans loved his clients they still would have made life hell for Quark, "just because", if they had something on him.

All Quark got was a bit of symbolic protesting from the Starfleet contingent of the station, and that couldn't have lasted.

...the holosuite's safeties should still be active and preventing the persons inside from injuring each other...

Would they do that? We've never heard of such a thing, or seen it happen. A holodeck with safeties on might stop a holographic Attila the Hun from decapitating O'Brien or skewering Bashir, but would it really stop O'Brien from accidentally decapitating Bashir with a careless swing of that prop axe the Chief brought in for the play? Much less a pissed-off O'Brien murdering Bashir in cold blood after stumbling upon a surveillance tape of the Doctor and Keiko having a medical moment?

Self-harming is still allowed with safeties on, supposedly, as we see O'Brien and others hurt themselves in sports with nary a mention of safeties being off.

Were the safeties really off in "Our Man Bashir", like Garak speculates? Or can real users like Bashir and Garak hurt each other if they wish, with the lines of "real" being blurred with Falcon/O'Brien in this special case? It would be odd for Bashir to be able to tell that safeties are down simply because he's bleeding after a holo-action, when O'Brien can dislocate his shoulder when holo-kayaking easily enough.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Triskelion]

What trouble - paying his rent like everyone else under the law? That's just good business anyway, it protects you legally from risk. By not paying rent he could have his business shut down at the drop of any hat. It would actually be better for him to pay rent - but like any "greedy capitalist", he based his decisions on the current quarter's earnings and ignored the slow motion train wreck of longterm risk mitigation.

 

[kkt]

Why did Quark get into trouble for "showcasing" holographic weapons, when no actual sales were taking place on DS9?

He didn't, exactly. Odo and Sisko acknowledged that they couldn't legally stop him. They could just make their displeasure known, and Dax could demand her tongo wheel back.