Not how provocation works, you see they have to do something like shooting at the Son'a for no reason.
Learning to love "Insurrection"
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Not how provocation works, you see they have to do something like shooting at the Son'a for no reason.
Since this film does what a lot of things shouldn't do, I stand by that statement. After all, it's not like the Son'a need this plan to harvest the planet to succeed in order to survive.... oh, wait. It does. So it's not only a "fu** off" from Riker, it's a "fu** off and die".
Um sorry? When did the B'aku fire on or attack the Enterprise or UFP ships/property? Refresh my memory please.
I just mentioned the firing on thing so that some of the Doughter defenders don't go "aha so it is justified" when I mention that rule.
Well 1) Kirk was probably bluffing and 2) I can think of some instances when being allowed to destroy a planet as a last resort might be needed.
Well considering the locals don't mind draging everyone else in their idiotic war and get pissed we they don't want to play their game I kind of have to side with Kirk.
The only reason to side with Kirk is because he had to listen to stupid UFP orders and a stupid UFP ambassador. Both Spock and Kirk balked at them. Its in the dialogue.
The planet didn't drag anyone into conflict....the UFP doggedly attempted to interfere inthe planetary system's affairs, there was no need to PASS THROUGH this sytem. The only reason to go there was strategic...for use as a base...hence the UFP was in the wrong, as it was in Insurrection.
The ring planel also had no native population. The Baku and the Baku-Sona did have a native homeworld, but the ring planet wasn't it.
From my list, Janus Six would be an example of a resouce world with an actual native population, the indigenous Horta.
How so?
Consider the settlement/city of La Nouvelle-Orléans. Establish in 1718 by the French Mississippi Company, ceded to the Spanish Empire in 1763, reverted to French in 1801, sold to the United States in 1803. Through the years many different peoples came to live there, including Haitian refugees. Refugees might be a good descriptive term for the arriving Baku.
As the territory and the city it held (analogy for the patch and the ring planet) changed hands periodically, the authority and jurisdiction changed too, for the many peoples living there it often made little difference.
But they, just like the Baku, were under the new jurisdiction each time. Even if no control was exercised upon them.
The Baku were on a Romulan planet, then a Klingon planet, then a Federation planet.
They were never on a Baku planet.
Is there an example of the PD applying to non-indigenous settlers/refugees who land on a planet held by the Romulans, which eventually becomes a Federation planet? A Federation planet according to Picard.
Why, Sisko wasn't dismissed. Inhabitable planets are hardly rare in the Star Trek universe. And the destruction wasn't going to be permanent , just protracted.
If after the review mention at the end of the movie, they don't go ahead and finish the job of harvesting the particles, and the public finds out what happened. Yes, I can imagine the majority of the Federation council (which authorized the harvest) will be out of office.
Withholding a major medical advance like the particles from hundreds of billions of the general public, there easily could be recall elections and impeachments, and penal colony incarcerations.
Well the inhabitants were selfishly committing acts (not leaving) that potentially was going to result in pain and earlier death for billions of federation citizens.
It is well established that the UFP's space has a certain boundary, but within that boundary, certain planets do not want to join the UFP...they are allowed to choose...and this is a standard used in TOS and STNG. No doubt within this space, there are also other planets on a cultural-tech scale that do not allow them to be approached by the UFP, these planets are also NOT in the UFP.
General Order 24 may have been a bluff by Kirk, but in fact, when incommunicado...Scott's last order very well may not have been countermanded. Leaving the possibility of planetary destruction.
Again I need to re-iterate, benefitting billions was only a by-product of the S'ona attempt at revenge, something the UFP unwittingly became involved in, and regardless of how many people are involved, it's breaking laws for their own selfish ends. How man people does it take before it becomes wrong? Millions? This is pointed out in the movie. I'm afraid even the UFP may not be qualified to make this decision, and therefore should have butted out.
It's also established that the ring planet was a part of the Federation, established by Picard himself. After he had interviewed members of the Baku, after he establish that they were a warp culture, after he establish they were not indigenous to the ring planet. Picard said plain and clear "A planet in Federation space." Picard did not want the Baku moved, and still he honestly admitted to the Starfleet official who had been assign by the Federation Council to carry out that relocation that the planet itself was in Federation space. It would have been easy for Picard to have originally said "An enclave."
He didn't
Not Rama a political enclave surrounded by Federation space (which you seem to be suggesting) , or a completely sovereign planet existing in a bubble of neutrality. The republic of San Marino (an enclave) is not in "Italian space," The Holy See (Vatican City) is not in "Italian space." If the ring planet was in a space that was not the Federation's, it would not be "A planet in Federation space."
When Dougherty followed Picard admission with "That's right. We have the planet," Picard, if he had had the smallest little bit of wiggle room to do so, would have corrected the Admiral's language. He didn't.
A planet in Federation space means the ring planet is a part of the Federation.
Providing that it's their planet.
But benefiting hundreds of billions was the Federation's sole reason in harvesting the particles. Even after the duplicity of the Sona leadership was discovered, the Federation's original intent didn't change.
Which laws?
If it isn't wrong with One, then it isn't wrong with a Million. At a certain point it might become impractical, but it would never "become" wrong at a certain number. Given that the Federation is the body in controlling authority over the Federation planet, they can remove the Baku in order to harvest the rings, in fact they could relocate the Baku even if they weren't going to remove the rings. Why?
Picard: "A planet in Federation space."
Yes.
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The ring planel also had no native population. The Baku and the Baku-Sona did have a native homeworld, but the ring planet wasn't it.
From my list, Janus Six would be an example of a resouce world with an actual native population, the indigenous Horta.
How so?
Consider the settlement/city of La Nouvelle-Orléans. Establish in 1718 by the French Mississippi Company, ceded to the Spanish Empire in 1763, reverted to French in 1801, sold to the United States in 1803. Through the years many different peoples came to live there, including Haitian refugees. Refugees might be a good descriptive term for the arriving Baku.
As the territory and the city it held (analogy for the patch and the ring planet) changed hands periodically, the authority and jurisdiction changed too, for the many peoples living there it often made little difference.
But they, just like the Baku, were under the new jurisdiction each time. Even if no control was exercised upon them.
The Baku were on a Romulan planet, then a Klingon planet, then a Federation planet.
They were never on a Baku planet.
Is there an example of the PD applying to non-indigenous settlers/refugees who land on a planet held by the Romulans, which eventually becomes a Federation planet? A Federation planet according to Picard.
Why, Sisko wasn't dismissed. Inhabitable planets are hardly rare in the Star Trek universe. And the destruction wasn't going to be permanent , just protracted.
If after the review mention at the end of the movie, they don't go ahead and finish the job of harvesting the particles, and the public finds out what happened. Yes, I can imagine the majority of the Federation council (which authorized the harvest) will be out of office.
Withholding a major medical advance like the particles from hundreds of billions of the general public, there easily could be recall elections and impeachments, and penal colony incarcerations.
Well the inhabitants were selfishly committing acts (not leaving) that potentially was going to result in pain and earlier death for billions of federation citizens.
It is well established that the UFP's space has a certain boundary, but within that boundary, certain planets do not want to join the UFP...they are allowed to choose...and this is a standard used in TOS and STNG. No doubt within this space, there are also other planets on a cultural-tech scale that do not allow them to be approached by the UFP, these planets are also NOT in the UFP.
General Order 24 may have been a bluff by Kirk, but in fact, when incommunicado...Scott's last order very well may not have been countermanded. Leaving the possibility of planetary destruction.
Again I need to re-iterate, benefitting billions was only a by-product of the S'ona attempt at revenge, something the UFP unwittingly became involved in, and regardless of how many people are involved, it's breaking laws for their own selfish ends. How man people does it take before it becomes wrong? Millions? This is pointed out in the movie. I'm afraid even the UFP may not be qualified to make this decision, and therefore should have butted out.
again, as others have pointed out, they're breaking no laws whatsoever. Everything Dougherty's doing is perfectly legal. Picard protests on moral grounds, not legal ones, so I'm not sure where you're getting this "violating the law" thing. The ONLY time that's brought up is in context of Dougherty sending the Son'a ship off to fight the Ent-D, NOT in anything relating to the Baku.
The Son'a motives are entirely irrelevant. Allies can be allies based on shared interests and goals without sharing values. This was a limited partnership of circumstance and convenience, so who cares?
And to reiterate, Picard's argument is stupid. Taken seriously, it would mean the violation of the rights of even an individual would be wrong even if it meant a vastly greater good. A far greater practical good would be accomplished through harvesting the magic particles than would be accomplished by leaving an isolationist culturally and technologically stagnant village of 600 on the planet.
This is no dilemma at all.
Except that one UFP starship they destroyed.
You do realize that from what I've seen the "greater good" argument in fiction is basically just an argument used to justify being a complete monster right?
the way something has been portrayed in fiction has nothing to do with the soundness of the argument.
All governments by definition have to take a "greater good" mentality when forming policy sometimes or they'd be paralyzed into inaction.
I've never had that problem since I loved, or more like enjoyed Insurrection in the first place. They should have a follow-up movie, since Picard intended to spend his shore-leave on the planet with that Baku women. They should have called it: 'Star Trek: His Erection'
Tasteless humour aside, Insurrection was a really good TNG film, which was rather gripping for me.
Tasteless humour aside, Insurrection was a really good TNG film, which was rather gripping for me.
Considering we're arguing about the actions of a FICTIONAL GOVERNMENT I think they do. Especially when the people who wrote them movie were practically shouting THIS IS WRONG.
Yes, but when they use it to justify imperialism its considered A BAD THING unless its to some ultranationalistic "My country right or wrong" type.
Andjust because they say its for the "greater good" doesn't mean they should be called on it if people disagree.
the people who wrote this movie had no understanding of ethics or ethical dilemmas whatsoever or they would have written a plot that involved a TRUE ethical dilemma with two actual sides rather than the farcical "dilemma" of "property rights of tiny village vs. revolutionary medical gains for billions" that we got.
So they can scream "this is wrong" all they want but that doesn't mean I have to take their views seriously.
And I don't consider Dougherty's actions in this movie to be "imperialistic." The word imperialism gets thrown around a lot these days to basically mean "any international action that I don't approve of." Again, Dougherty and more importantly the Son'a have the law and common sense on their side in this movie.
Picard has poor logic and a desire to get into Anij's pants.
This is basically Insurrection in a nutshell.
I'd like to see someone defend the property rights of six hundred people here on Earth if they were sitting on a cure for cancer or a radical new energy source. I find it ironic no one here objects to the damage we constantly due to ocean life in our search for new energy sources. I've always thought the outrage displayed here was simply because Picard says we're suppose to be outraged.
Insurrection offers a very one sided ethical dilemma with the writers practically screaming this is wrong in the script. I'm starting to think that Piller or Berman were being pushed out of their McMansion by a new strip mall while this was being written.
The ring planel also had no native population. The Baku and the Baku-Sona did have a native homeworld, but the ring planet wasn't it.
From my list, Janus Six would be an example of a resouce world with an actual native population, the indigenous Horta.
How so?
Consider the settlement/city of La Nouvelle-Orléans. Establish in 1718 by the French Mississippi Company, ceded to the Spanish Empire in 1763, reverted to French in 1801, sold to the United States in 1803. Through the years many different peoples came to live there, including Haitian refugees. Refugees might be a good descriptive term for the arriving Baku.
As the territory and the city it held (analogy for the patch and the ring planet) changed hands periodically, the authority and jurisdiction changed too, for the many peoples living there it often made little difference.
But they, just like the Baku, were under the new jurisdiction each time. Even if no control was exercised upon them.
The Baku were on a Romulan planet, then a Klingon planet, then a Federation planet.
They were never on a Baku planet.
Is there an example of the PD applying to non-indigenous settlers/refugees who land on a planet held by the Romulans, which eventually becomes a Federation planet? A Federation planet according to Picard.
Why, Sisko wasn't dismissed. Inhabitable planets are hardly rare in the Star Trek universe. And the destruction wasn't going to be permanent , just protracted.
If after the review mention at the end of the movie, they don't go ahead and finish the job of harvesting the particles, and the public finds out what happened. Yes, I can imagine the majority of the Federation council (which authorized the harvest) will be out of office.
Withholding a major medical advance like the particles from hundreds of billions of the general public, there easily could be recall elections and impeachments, and penal colony incarcerations.
Well the inhabitants were selfishly committing acts (not leaving) that potentially was going to result in pain and earlier death for billions of federation citizens.
It is well established that the UFP's space has a certain boundary, but within that boundary, certain planets do not want to join the UFP...they are allowed to choose...and this is a standard used in TOS and STNG. No doubt within this space, there are also other planets on a cultural-tech scale that do not allow them to be approached by the UFP, these planets are also NOT in the UFP.
General Order 24 may have been a bluff by Kirk, but in fact, when incommunicado...Scott's last order very well may not have been countermanded. Leaving the possibility of planetary destruction.
Again I need to re-iterate, benefitting billions was only a by-product of the S'ona attempt at revenge, something the UFP unwittingly became involved in, and regardless of how many people are involved, it's breaking laws for their own selfish ends. How man people does it take before it becomes wrong? Millions? This is pointed out in the movie. I'm afraid even the UFP may not be qualified to make this decision, and therefore should have butted out.
again, as others have pointed out, they're breaking no laws whatsoever. Everything Dougherty's doing is perfectly legal. Picard protests on moral grounds, not legal ones, so I'm not sure where you're getting this "violating the law" thing. The ONLY time that's brought up is in context of Dougherty sending the Son'a ship off to fight the Ent-D, NOT in anything relating to the Baku.
The Son'a motives are entirely irrelevant. Allies can be allies based on shared interests and goals without sharing values. This was a limited partnership of circumstance and convenience, so who cares?
And to reiterate, Picard's argument is stupid. Taken seriously, it would mean the violation of the rights of even an individual would be wrong even if it meant a vastly greater good. A far greater practical good would be accomplished through harvesting the magic particles than would be accomplished by leaving an isolationist culturally and technologically stagnant village of 600 on the planet.
This is no dilemma at all.
Its not legal...the Council can't declare established laws as non-existent simply by giving the go-ahead for an ill-conceived mission. I've already mentioned which laws/rules they break. Its simply a technicality that the people making the laws gave the go ahead. I believe we are left with the impression that the poor decisions will lead to some legal actions at the end of the movie. The corrupt perpetrators will hopefully get their due. As parallel example...Hell, George Bush can almost unilaterally give his go ahead on an invasion of another country then found to be doing it for the wrong reasons by everyone in the book, including the GAO and Congress...that doesn't mean the invasion was right. There were many grounds that the invasion of Iraq could be found to be illegal even though no one was tried. For example the claim of UN sanctioning ofthe action: ( International legal experts, including the International Commission of Jurists, a group of 31 leading Canadian law professors, and the U.S.-based Lawyers Committee on Nuclear Policy, have denounced both of these rationales.[95][96][97] On Thursday November 20, 2003, an article published in the Guardian alleged that Richard Perle, a senior member of the administration's Defense Policy Board Advisory Committee, conceded that the invasion was illegal but still justified.) Even if interfering with 600 people on a planet wasn't an issue, destroying a planet biosphere, especially one fully M-Class has to be one of the worst offenses on the books.
You know the biggest problem I have with this film, it makes Picard look like an unlikable hypocrite. In "Journey's End" Picard was willing to remove some aboriginals from their adopted homeland because of a treaty designed to placate the Cardassian Union, a military dictatorship. In this film, he was unwilling to remove 600 aliens who look exactly like white people from their adopted home world, despite the fact this planet could yield cures to deadly diseases. Also Picard has the hots for one of the aliens who looks like a white person. So this movie seems to be unintentionally saying that Picard is a racist who lets lust interfere with his judgment and cares more about placating dictatorships then helping cure deadly diseases.
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I agree with this. It's also funny to watch those defending Picard's decision in THIS film tie themselves into knots to explain how either (1) he was right in both cases despite taking contradictory actions or (2) he was actually wrong in "journey's end" but right here and explaining how this change of heart had nothing to do with Anij or the Baku being pretty white people.
I'm convinced that if the plot had involved Picard removing the Baku and he'd given some impassioned speech, many of the same folks would be taking his side there too. It seems like as long as the action is approved of by "our heroes" many are willing to accept it.
you've mentioned before what laws you thought they were breaking yes, but you can get five lawyers to argue five different opinions. You could make a sound legal case for the UFP actions here easily.
But legality aside, I'm still amazed that anyone would take issue with removing 600 people to provide medical benefits to billions. As BillJ pointed out, if we turned this into real-world concrete examples rather than fictionalized abstractions, the absurdity of that viewpoint would become clear.
"the cure for cancer lies in this spot? But that would mean telling these 52 people that they'd have to move 9 miles away! The sheer imperialism of it just disgusts me!"
A basic tenet of Vulcan society is that "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few". Any discussion on the ethics of the Ba'ku move should be taking into account not only Earth-centric values. Not only do we have the Vulcans, but we also have the Andorians... a known warrior race probably with beliefs not too far removed from the Klingons.
So I would think the Ba'ku move would reflect the core values of all the Federation founding worlds, not only Earth. In that light I don't believe the Federation involvement in the move is as far fetched as folks are presenting it.
So I would think the Ba'ku move would reflect the core values of all the Federation founding worlds, not only Earth. In that light I don't believe the Federation involvement in the move is as far fetched as folks are presenting it.
not to mention that this movie takes place during a war for the survival of the UFP itself. It makes it even more ludicrous to think that Picard may be putting the interests of this tiny village over the future of the entire Alpha Quadrant considering how the benefits of the planet may be the difference between victory or defeat.
That was the part of the film I really didn't get. The reasoning of the Federation move made no sense.
The Dominion wasn't winning because the Federation forces were dying of disease or old age. They were losing because Federation forces were on the wrong end of Jem'Hadar weapons.
It's a film where everyone's motivations are weirdly out-of-place considering the conditions.
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