Learning to love "Insurrection"

[Hartzilla2007]

Harvesting the space particles will cook the surface of the planet, this is why the Federation wants to move the Baku, so they wouldn't be harmed . After "decades" the Federation likely would have had no problem with the Baku returning to that valley (on a Federation planet) to re-establish their settlement/colony - if that would have even been possible.

Except for the fact that it isn't the Baku's planet which they chose to live on before there was a federation which they never joined.

But hey whats theft of another group's territory when you get something that by their own admission wouldn't last nearly as long as the version that stays in the rings and will likely RUN OUT.

Yeah that's so much better than studying the rings and possibly learning how to replicate them continuously.

I mean why do something smart logical and not dumber than S@#t when you can get a short term benefit that eventually dries up becuase you want to be lazy in getting your gratification.

Assuming of course that the medical effects were real after collection, none of the Baku would have been "condemned to death," if the assembled Baku wish to continue to live in a isolated valley some where, the Federation was "a thousand worlds and moving out," there was likely a unoccupied valley somewhere.

Funny you should mention a TOS quote seeing as back then when they weren't the Galactic Empire the feds believed to paraphase Kirk that your planet was YOURS

I guess the idea is that the Ba’ku rightfully own the rings. A few hundred people found an uninhabited planet and established a settlement, and this gives them ownership of all the resources of the planet. That doesn’t strike me as a reasonable rule for the Star Trek universe.

Funny that's usually how the Feds usually aproach a planet OWNED BY ANOTHER RACE.

It’s not even a relocation. It’s a temporary evacuation.

After World War II, the United States conducted nuclear weapons testing at Bikini Atoll. In 1946, the population of about 200 people was compulsorily relocated to Rongerik Atoll. In 1968 the US declared that Bikini was habitable again and allowed the population to return.²

Was this wrong? The national security of the US was at stake. Should America have forgone testing of its nuclear arsenal rather than evacuate 200 Bikinians?

Are you seriously equating something the Fed's don't actually need with national security?

Not to mention supporting the nation security trumps your right argument. Which I personally think is never a good idea and not only can lead to abuse but actually has,
WARENTLESS WIRETAPS anyone.

Also it fills me with confidence that the similar situation you chose has the Federation standing showing how little they knew about what they were doing to the area when they did it. That's really a responsible position to take there I mean why do a little more reasearch on the subject before unleashing something extremely destructive

Oops... turned out the ecosystem was still toxic and they had to evacuate again. In 1983 the US paid the Bikinians $150 million as compensation.

Whoops

This is probably not relevant to the INS discussion.

Actually I think its very relevant to talk about using things that you have a limited understanding of

¹ Dougherty actually says “generations,” not “decades.” I don’t think that makes much difference.

Wrong

Generation definition

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/generation

Thats more than 10 years which is how long a decade is.

 

[Captrek]

It’s not even a relocation. It’s a temporary evacuation.

After World War II, the United States conducted nuclear weapons testing at Bikini Atoll. In 1946, the population of about 200 people was compulsorily relocated to Rongerik Atoll. In 1968 the US declared that Bikini was habitable again and allowed the population to return.²

Was this wrong? The national security of the US was at stake. Should America have forgone testing of its nuclear arsenal rather than evacuate 200 Bikinians?

Are you seriously equating something the Fed's don't actually need with national security?

Are you seriously suggesting that it’s acceptable to compulsorily evacuate a few hundred people for the purpose of developing weapons of mass destruction, but not for the purpose of tapping medical resources that will help billions?

Also it fills me with confidence that the similar situation you chose has the Federation standing showing how little they knew about what they were doing to the area when they did it.

No, the similar situation I chose has the United States not realizing how long-lasting the environmental damage would be, and in that particular respect is not necessarily similar.

That's really a responsible position to take there I mean why do a little more reasearch on the subject before unleashing something extremely destructive

They have been doing research. Did you miss the first half hour of the film?

They’ve done the research and now it’s time for the procedure. There is life-and-death urgency because many of the Son’a will die if they don’t get the collected particles in time. Do their lives matter?

Oops... turned out the ecosystem was still toxic and they had to evacuate again. In 1983 the US paid the Bikinians $150 million as compensation.

Whoops

This is probably not relevant to the INS discussion.

Actually I think its very relevant to talk about using things that you have a limited understanding of

It’s not relevant because it doesn’t seem to apply in this context.

Dougherty says the planet will be uninhabitable for generations.

Are you objecting to the procedure on the grounds that it might play out like Bikini Atoll, with the projections turning out to be wrong and the planet becoming permanently uninhabitable? No such objection is raised in the film, and there is no indication in the film that there is a significant risk of such a development or that the possibility of this scenario is part of what’s motivating Picard.

¹ Dougherty actually says “generations,” not “decades.” I don’t think that makes much difference.

Wrong

Generation definition

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/generation

Thats more than 10 years which is how long a decade is.

I didn’t claim the words are synonyms, just that the difference doesn’t make much difference to the essential nature of the issues under discussion. Note the imprecise nature of Dougherty’s assessment. While “three generations” is clearly longer than “three decades,” the vague span of “generations” is similar to “decades,” and certainly closer to “decades” than “centuries.”

Based on the information presented in the film, there is every reason to believe that the evacuated Ba’ku will eventually be able to return to the planet and reverse the aging that takes place during the evacuation.

Even if some of the Ba’ku do die of old age and leave resettlement to their progeny, so what? Do the Ba’ku have an inalienable right to immortality that trumps the rights of the exiled Son’a to survive and of the hundreds of billions of UFP citizens who need the medical treatments the particles can provide?

 

[Captrek]

Imagine this hypothetical scenario in today’s world.

A new, relatively clean source of fuel is found. There is a massive reservoir of this fuel in Arctic waters. It can cut the cost of energy by 85% worldwide and prevent further environmental damage caused by burning fossil fuels.

Unfortunately, the process of extracting this world-changing fuel will cause localized environmental damage. Certain marine life will leave the area or die off. There is a nearby community of about 200 Inuit who depend on that marine life to survive, and their land will become effectively uninhabitable until the marine ecosystem recovers.

What do we do? Evacuate the 200, or tell the rest of the world to suck it?

 

[Tiberius]

If someone shows that they will take every oportunity to try to kill you, are you expected to try to save them if it means you will probably both die?

How is Picard risking himself if it's Riker beaming him off the Collector?

Imagine this.

"Captain, we're going to beam you off the collector!"

"Make sure you get Ru'afo too!"

Both materialise on the Enterprise.

Ru'afo: "You bastard! I'll kill you! What, you think just because the collector is destroyed that all of a sudden I don't want to kill you anymore? All you got here to protect you is a transporter chief. Let's see how much damage I can do before security shows up!"

You see, if someone takes every opportunity to try to kill you, you don't bring them along for the ride.

 

[MasuPu'a]

When Picard beams off the self-destructing collector, why does he leave Ru’afo there to die?

Well, Riker was the one who beamed him off, but the question still remains. Because the sensors would have just told Riker that Picard and one Baku were on the collector...yet he only beams up Picard.

Sensors or no, Picard could tell Riker about Ru'afo.

Picard tells Riker that he needs to be beamed off the collector before it blows up, but he does not mention that there's someone else aboard the collector who is also going to die if not beamed away. He orders Riker only to save him. How is this defensible?

The beam-out seems to have happened at last minute, I'm not sure Picard had the time to tell Riker to 'remember to pick up the other guy when you grab me at the last second.' My thoughts are that Riker should have taken the initiative and beamed them both out. The sensors wouldn't have even indicated that it was Ru'afo on board, all Riker would know that it was another Baku (the pretty good people that must be saved). The only reason I can think of is that it looked cool. Big ending explosion shot, bad-guy bites it with flames and the Enterprise swooping in to save the day. It looks cool...and that's about it.

If someone shows that they will take every oportunity to try to kill you, are you expected to try to save them if it means you will probably both die?

How is Picard risking himself if it's Riker beaming him off the Collector?

Imagine this.

"Captain, we're going to beam you off the collector!"

"Make sure you get Ru'afo too!"

Both materialise on the Enterprise.

Ru'afo: "You bastard! I'll kill you! What, you think just because the collector is destroyed that all of a sudden I don't want to kill you anymore? All you got here to protect you is a transporter chief. Let's see how much damage I can do before security shows up!"

You see, if someone takes every opportunity to try to kill you, you don't bring them along for the ride.

Because an aging, sickly alien who's been having poisons sucked out of his neck through the entire movie and just had his ass handed to him Picard, has the potential to do any sort of damage at this point. Without the threat of his collector ship, Ru'afo really isn't much of a villain. At most he'll just wail loud enough to cause his stretched skin to split and ooze blood again. The most damage he could cause would be blood stains on the carpet in the transporter room.

 

[Tiberius]

Ru'afo was still trying to kill Picard. I don't care what other circumstances are in effect, but if someone is trying to kill me, I don't want them anywhere near me.

 

[Captrek]

Ru'afo was still trying to kill Picard. I don't care what other circumstances are in effect, but if someone is trying to kill me, I don't want them anywhere near me.

You’re not exactly the type of character who gets to captain Federation starships.

 

[Captrek]

They won't begin the procedure while the planet is still inhabited, so our job is to keep the planet inhabited.

That’s called human shields. Using children as human shields is generally considered beyond the bounds of civilized war. If not for a mutiny on the Son’a ship, most of them would have been killed.

 

[sonak]

They won't begin the procedure while the planet is still inhabited, so our job is to keep the planet inhabited.

That’s called human shields. Using children as human shields is generally considered beyond the bounds of civilized war. If not for a mutiny on the Son’a ship, most of them would have been killed.

that's a good point. Wow, Picard really does come off as quite a dickhead in this movie.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Imagine this hypothetical scenario in today’s world.

A new, relatively clean source of fuel is found. There is a massive reservoir of this fuel in Arctic waters. It can cut the cost of energy by 85% worldwide and prevent further environmental damage caused by burning fossil fuels.

Worthless as it will eventually run out and leave you at square one.

Ru'afo was still trying to kill Picard. I don't care what other circumstances are in effect, but if someone is trying to kill me, I don't want them anywhere near me.

You’re not exactly the type of character who gets to captain Federation starships.

And you're the type of person the Prime Directive was designed to keep in line.

They won't begin the procedure while the planet is still inhabited, so our job is to keep the planet inhabited.

That’s called human shields. Using children as human shields is generally considered beyond the bounds of civilized war. If not for a mutiny on the Son’a ship, most of them would have been killed.

You do know he was probably just staling for time until Riker could contact the federation council and try to get them to change their minds, Right.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

It’s not even a relocation. It’s a temporary evacuation.

After World War II, the United States conducted nuclear weapons testing at Bikini Atoll. In 1946, the population of about 200 people was compulsorily relocated to Rongerik Atoll. In 1968 the US declared that Bikini was habitable again and allowed the population to return.²

Was this wrong? The national security of the US was at stake. Should America have forgone testing of its nuclear arsenal rather than evacuate 200 Bikinians?

Are you seriously equating something the Fed's don't actually need with national security?

Are you seriously suggesting that it’s acceptable to compulsorily evacuate a few hundred people for the purpose of developing weapons of mass destruction, but not for the purpose of tapping medical resources that will help billions?



No, the similar situation I chose has the United States not realizing how long-lasting the environmental damage would be, and in that particular respect is not necessarily similar.


They have been doing research. Did you miss the first half hour of the film?

They’ve done the research and now it’s time for the procedure. There is life-and-death urgency because many of the Son’a will die if they don’t get the collected particles in time. Do their lives matter?



It’s not relevant because it doesn’t seem to apply in this context.

Dougherty says the planet will be uninhabitable for generations.

Are you objecting to the procedure on the grounds that it might play out like Bikini Atoll, with the projections turning out to be wrong and the planet becoming permanently uninhabitable? No such objection is raised in the film, and there is no indication in the film that there is a significant risk of such a development or that the possibility of this scenario is part of what’s motivating Picard.

¹ Dougherty actually says “generations,” not “decades.” I don’t think that makes much difference.

Wrong

Generation definition

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/generation

Thats more than 10 years which is how long a decade is.

I didn’t claim the words are synonyms, just that the difference doesn’t make much difference to the essential nature of the issues under discussion. Note the imprecise nature of Dougherty’s assessment. While “three generations” is clearly longer than “three decades,” the vague span of “generations” is similar to “decades,” and certainly closer to “decades” than “centuries.”

Based on the information presented in the film, there is every reason to believe that the evacuated Ba’ku will eventually be able to return to the planet and reverse the aging that takes place during the evacuation.

Even if some of the Ba’ku do die of old age and leave resettlement to their progeny, so what? Do the Ba’ku have an inalienable right to immortality that trumps the rights of the exiled Son’a to survive and of the hundreds of billions of UFP citizens who need the medical treatments the particles can provide?

Okay I' just going to respond to this quickly with these points

1) OLD AGE IS NOT AND NEVER WILL BE A DISEASE STOP TREATING IT LIKE IT IS

2) THIS WAS IMMORAL AND TRYING TO INGORE IT DOESN'T MAKE YOU RIGHT. The federation was trying to take some else's planet WITHOUT EVEN LETTING THEM KNOW THEY DID IT AND THEN TRYING TO KILL ANYONE WHO TRIED TO STOP THEM. Hell this is exactly the sort of thing that the Prime Directive was likely designed to PREVENT, SO I'M NOT OKAY WITH IT NO MATTER WHAT JUSTIFICATION YOU THROW UP.

3) THERE WAS NO IDICATION THAT THIS WAS TEMPORARY THEY WEREN'T EVEN SUPPOST TO KNOW IT HAPPENED.

4) THERE WEREN'T GOING TO BE ANY METAPHAYSIC PARTICLES LEFT SO EVEN IN THE UNLIKELY EVENT THEY COULD GO BACK IT WOULDN'T BE BUSINESS AS USUAL.

Seriously are you going to Tracy was right in the Omega Glory too?

AND KNOW I DON'T THINK THE SUPPOSED SUPERIORITY OF THE FEDERATION ALLOWS THEM TO PLAY GOD.

 

[sonak]

Are you seriously equating something the Fed's don't actually need with national security?

Are you seriously suggesting that it’s acceptable to compulsorily evacuate a few hundred people for the purpose of developing weapons of mass destruction, but not for the purpose of tapping medical resources that will help billions?



No, the similar situation I chose has the United States not realizing how long-lasting the environmental damage would be, and in that particular respect is not necessarily similar.


They have been doing research. Did you miss the first half hour of the film?

They’ve done the research and now it’s time for the procedure. There is life-and-death urgency because many of the Son’a will die if they don’t get the collected particles in time. Do their lives matter?



It’s not relevant because it doesn’t seem to apply in this context.

Dougherty says the planet will be uninhabitable for generations.

Are you objecting to the procedure on the grounds that it might play out like Bikini Atoll, with the projections turning out to be wrong and the planet becoming permanently uninhabitable? No such objection is raised in the film, and there is no indication in the film that there is a significant risk of such a development or that the possibility of this scenario is part of what’s motivating Picard.

Wrong

Generation definition

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/generation

Thats more than 10 years which is how long a decade is.

I didn’t claim the words are synonyms, just that the difference doesn’t make much difference to the essential nature of the issues under discussion. Note the imprecise nature of Dougherty’s assessment. While “three generations” is clearly longer than “three decades,” the vague span of “generations” is similar to “decades,” and certainly closer to “decades” than “centuries.”

Based on the information presented in the film, there is every reason to believe that the evacuated Ba’ku will eventually be able to return to the planet and reverse the aging that takes place during the evacuation.

Even if some of the Ba’ku do die of old age and leave resettlement to their progeny, so what? Do the Ba’ku have an inalienable right to immortality that trumps the rights of the exiled Son’a to survive and of the hundreds of billions of UFP citizens who need the medical treatments the particles can provide?

Okay I' just going to respond to this quickly with these points

1) OLD AGE IS NOT AND NEVER WILL BE A DISEASE STOP TREATING IT LIKE IT IS

2) THIS WAS IMMORAL AND TRYING TO INGORE IT DOESN'T MAKE YOU RIGHT. The federation was trying to take some else's planet WITHOUT EVEN LETTING THEM KNOW THEY DID IT AND THEN TRYING TO KILL ANYONE WHO TRIED TO STOP THEM. Hell this is exactly the sort of thing that the Prime Directive was likely designed to PREVENT, SO I'M NOT OKAY WITH IT NO MATTER WHAT JUSTIFICATION YOU THROW UP.

3) THERE WAS NO IDICATION THAT THIS WAS TEMPORARY THEY WEREN'T EVEN SUPPOST TO KNOW IT HAPPENED.

4) THERE WEREN'T GOING TO BE ANY METAPHAYSIC PARTICLES LEFT SO EVEN IN THE UNLIKELY EVENT THEY COULD GO BACK IT WOULDN'T BE BUSINESS AS USUAL.

Seriously are you going to Tracy was right in the Omega Glory too?

AND KNOW I DON'T THINK THE SUPPOSED SUPERIORITY OF THE FEDERATION ALLOWS THEM TO PLAY GOD.

I'll ignore the other points that you're wrong on, especially the PD, because first of all, the PD doesn't apply here, and secondly the PD is stupid.


But to respond to your point on old age: yes, it is basically a disease. It results in substantially diminished mental and physical abilities.

but wait, it's "natural", right? So can being born near-sighted. I guess we shouldn't try to help near-sighted folks by giving them glasses, contact lenses, or corrective surgery.

 

[BillJ]

Imagine this.

"Captain, we're going to beam you off the collector!"

"Make sure you get Ru'afo too!"

Both materialise on the Enterprise.

Ru'afo: "You bastard! I'll kill you! What, you think just because the collector is destroyed that all of a sudden I don't want to kill you anymore? All you got here to protect you is a transporter chief. Let's see how much damage I can do before security shows up!"

This is what we call reaching for an explanation. Picard and the Transporter Chief would've taken down Ru'afo without issue. I laughed my ass off when I read this.

Seriously are you going to Tracy was right in the Omega Glory too?

I think this is an 'apples to oranges' comparison and doesn't really apply. But you don't think someone in the Federation didn't follow-up on these findings to make sure McCoy's original assessment was correct? Do you think the Federation would've left Omega IV untouched if it thought McCoy's findings were in error?

The various shows have shown the Federation flexing its' collective muscle when a situation exists that could benefit it.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

I think this is an 'apples to oranges' comparison and doesn't really apply. But you don't think someone in the Federation didn't follow-up on these findings to make sure McCoy's original assessment was correct? Do you think the Federation would've left Omega IV untouched if it thought McCoy's findings were in error?

If the natives told them to leave I think they would seeing as THAT'S BEEN ESTABLISHED ON SCREEN! You know like with the Halkans who told Kirk NO when he wanted to mine their dilithium which was you know ONE OF THE REASONS THAT THE FEDERATION WAS BETTER THAN THE TERRAN EMPIRE, or when he had to negotiate with the Organians to use their planet as a baseb, or negotiating with the Capellans for their topaline which http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Mininghe wanted to get for the federation. In TOS the Federation never took what it wanted from other planets without some agreement in place that gave the natives something and if they told them to bug off THEY DID.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Are you seriously suggesting that it’s acceptable to compulsorily evacuate a few hundred people for the purpose of developing weapons of mass destruction, but not for the purpose of tapping medical resources that will help billions?



No, the similar situation I chose has the United States not realizing how long-lasting the environmental damage would be, and in that particular respect is not necessarily similar.


They have been doing research. Did you miss the first half hour of the film?

They’ve done the research and now it’s time for the procedure. There is life-and-death urgency because many of the Son’a will die if they don’t get the collected particles in time. Do their lives matter?



It’s not relevant because it doesn’t seem to apply in this context.

Dougherty says the planet will be uninhabitable for generations.

Are you objecting to the procedure on the grounds that it might play out like Bikini Atoll, with the projections turning out to be wrong and the planet becoming permanently uninhabitable? No such objection is raised in the film, and there is no indication in the film that there is a significant risk of such a development or that the possibility of this scenario is part of what’s motivating Picard.



I didn’t claim the words are synonyms, just that the difference doesn’t make much difference to the essential nature of the issues under discussion. Note the imprecise nature of Dougherty’s assessment. While “three generations” is clearly longer than “three decades,” the vague span of “generations” is similar to “decades,” and certainly closer to “decades” than “centuries.”

Based on the information presented in the film, there is every reason to believe that the evacuated Ba’ku will eventually be able to return to the planet and reverse the aging that takes place during the evacuation.

Even if some of the Ba’ku do die of old age and leave resettlement to their progeny, so what? Do the Ba’ku have an inalienable right to immortality that trumps the rights of the exiled Son’a to survive and of the hundreds of billions of UFP citizens who need the medical treatments the particles can provide?

Okay I' just going to respond to this quickly with these points

1) OLD AGE IS NOT AND NEVER WILL BE A DISEASE STOP TREATING IT LIKE IT IS

2) THIS WAS IMMORAL AND TRYING TO INGORE IT DOESN'T MAKE YOU RIGHT. The federation was trying to take some else's planet WITHOUT EVEN LETTING THEM KNOW THEY DID IT AND THEN TRYING TO KILL ANYONE WHO TRIED TO STOP THEM. Hell this is exactly the sort of thing that the Prime Directive was likely designed to PREVENT, SO I'M NOT OKAY WITH IT NO MATTER WHAT JUSTIFICATION YOU THROW UP.

3) THERE WAS NO IDICATION THAT THIS WAS TEMPORARY THEY WEREN'T EVEN SUPPOST TO KNOW IT HAPPENED.

4) THERE WEREN'T GOING TO BE ANY METAPHAYSIC PARTICLES LEFT SO EVEN IN THE UNLIKELY EVENT THEY COULD GO BACK IT WOULDN'T BE BUSINESS AS USUAL.

Seriously are you going to Tracy was right in the Omega Glory too?

AND KNOW I DON'T THINK THE SUPPOSED SUPERIORITY OF THE FEDERATION ALLOWS THEM TO PLAY GOD.

I'll ignore the other points that you're wrong on, especially the PD, because first of all, the PD doesn't apply here,

Yes it does HAVE YOU WATCHED TNG? That was the entire reason they stayed out of Bajor's problems with the Cardassians. Sisko was even told it applied to the Bajorans in the freaking pilot of DS9 AFTER they had warp drive.

and secondly the PD is stupid.

Only when used to justify letting the natives die or justifying not helping them. It's really a smart idea in cases where it's used to STOP you from either conquring, killing, or stealing a planet from it's natives. Plus YOUR OPINION OF IT DOESN'T MEAN YOU GET TO IGNORE THAT IT EXISTS.

But to respond to your point on old age: yes, it is basically a disease. It results in substantially diminished mental and physical abilities.

but wait, it's "natural", right? So can being born near-sighted. I guess we shouldn't try to help near-sighted folks by giving them glasses, contact lenses, or corrective surgery.

I don't have a problem with helping people's conditions EXCEPT if its done by Theft, kidnapping, and attempted murder, also using somethin ILLEGAL to pull of the theft and kidnapping.

 

[sonak]

Okay I' just going to respond to this quickly with these points

1) OLD AGE IS NOT AND NEVER WILL BE A DISEASE STOP TREATING IT LIKE IT IS

2) THIS WAS IMMORAL AND TRYING TO INGORE IT DOESN'T MAKE YOU RIGHT. The federation was trying to take some else's planet WITHOUT EVEN LETTING THEM KNOW THEY DID IT AND THEN TRYING TO KILL ANYONE WHO TRIED TO STOP THEM. Hell this is exactly the sort of thing that the Prime Directive was likely designed to PREVENT, SO I'M NOT OKAY WITH IT NO MATTER WHAT JUSTIFICATION YOU THROW UP.

3) THERE WAS NO IDICATION THAT THIS WAS TEMPORARY THEY WEREN'T EVEN SUPPOST TO KNOW IT HAPPENED.

4) THERE WEREN'T GOING TO BE ANY METAPHAYSIC PARTICLES LEFT SO EVEN IN THE UNLIKELY EVENT THEY COULD GO BACK IT WOULDN'T BE BUSINESS AS USUAL.

Seriously are you going to Tracy was right in the Omega Glory too?

AND KNOW I DON'T THINK THE SUPPOSED SUPERIORITY OF THE FEDERATION ALLOWS THEM TO PLAY GOD.

I'll ignore the other points that you're wrong on, especially the PD, because first of all, the PD doesn't apply here,

Yes it does HAVE YOU WATCHED TNG? That was the entire reason they stayed out of Bajor's problems with the Cardassians. Sisko was even told it applied to the Bajorans in the freaking pilot of DS9 AFTER they had warp drive.

and secondly the PD is stupid.

Only when used to justify letting the natives die or justifying not helping them. It's really a smart idea in cases where it's used to STOP you from either conquring, killing, or stealing a planet from it's natives. Plus YOUR OPINION OF IT DOESN'T MEAN YOU GET TO IGNORE THAT IT EXISTS.

But to respond to your point on old age: yes, it is basically a disease. It results in substantially diminished mental and physical abilities.

but wait, it's "natural", right? So can being born near-sighted. I guess we shouldn't try to help near-sighted folks by giving them glasses, contact lenses, or corrective surgery.

I don't have a problem with helping people's conditions EXCEPT if its done by Theft, kidnapping, and attempted murder, also using somethin ILLEGAL to pull of the theft and kidnapping.

well Dougherty's interpretation is that the PD doesn't apply here and he's an admiral, not some captain being led around by his penis. So I'll go with Dougherty's views on that.

I agree that the Feds and the Son'a shouldn't have used kidnapping or subterfuge. They should have tried negotiating some kind of compensation for the Baku to leave the planet, and if the Baku still refused, they should have been openly removed, no deception involved.

oh, and your arguments all seem to be about UFP involvement. What about the Son'a, who have no PD and have a claim to the planet. Would you object if THEY removed the Baku themselves without the UFP then shared the resources with others? And if so, why do you object?

 

[Captrek]

Imagine this hypothetical scenario in today’s world.

A new, relatively clean source of fuel is found. There is a massive reservoir of this fuel in Arctic waters. It can cut the cost of energy by 85% worldwide and prevent further environmental damage caused by burning fossil fuels.

Worthless as it will eventually run out and leave you at square one.

Is that a serious response?

You do know he was probably just staling for time until Riker could contact the federation council and try to get them to change their minds, Right.

Yes, I realize he was stalling for time. He was using human shields to stall for time, and if not for Gallatin’s mutiny, they would have died.

For goodness’ sake, there were children among them! Even the adults didn’t seem to recognize they were risking their lives with Picard’s plan. Picard told them Ru’afo would never go ahead with the procedure while human shields were in place. That turned out not to be true, but the Ba’ku trusted him. He put them in harm’s way, told them everything was going to be fine, and is incredibly lucky they didn’t get killed as a result.

1) OLD AGE IS NOT AND NEVER WILL BE A DISEASE STOP TREATING IT LIKE IT IS

You’ll need to clarify this. What do you mean “old age is not a disease,” who has said the contrary, and what does it have to do with this discussion?

The federation was trying to take some else's planet

Yes, the Ba’ku’s planet. So they asserted when they exiled the Son’a.

By what right? The first small group of settlers to reach a planet owns the whole planet? Is that how property rights are supposed to work in the Star Trek universe?

WITHOUT EVEN LETTING THEM KNOW THEY DID IT

Yes, the holoship stunt was immoral and stupid. I think everybody agrees on that.

AND THEN TRYING TO KILL ANYONE WHO TRIED TO STOP THEM.

Picard was the one who decided to start playing games with people’s lives, not Ru’afo.

Hell this is exactly the sort of thing that the Prime Directive was likely designed to PREVENT, SO I'M NOT OKAY WITH IT NO MATTER WHAT JUSTIFICATION YOU THROW UP.

I have nothing to add to sonak’s comment on this.

3) THERE WAS NO IDICATION THAT THIS WAS TEMPORARY

It is stated explicitly in the film that the planet would be uninhabitable “for generations.” The evacuation would be lengthy, not eternal. No reason is given to doubt that.

4) THERE WEREN'T GOING TO BE ANY METAPHAYSIC PARTICLES LEFT SO EVEN IN THE UNLIKELY EVENT THEY COULD GO BACK

Unlikely event? It is stated in the film, and nothing in the film contradicts that statement. It should be presumed correct by any reasonable standards of construction.

IT WOULDN'T BE BUSINESS AS USUAL.

What makes you think they’re entitled to business as usual? By what right do these 600 people own the billions of tons of metaphasic material in the rings?

We’re talking about an M-class planet here: millions of millions of billions of tons of planet, hundreds of millions of square miles of surface area, a natural resource that can revolutionize medical care for hundreds of billions of people... and the first six hundred people to plant a flag and establish a small settlement are entitled to claim ownership of the whole damn planet and tell the rest of the galaxy to go suck a lemon? Really?

Seriously are you going to Tracy was right in the Omega Glory too?

Tracy was a lunatic. There was never any serum on Omega IV and there was never any solid reason to believe there was one. He committed mass murder in a mad quest for a fountain of youth that never existed. It wasn’t remotely similar to the situation in INS.

AND KNOW I DON'T THINK THE SUPPOSED SUPERIORITY OF THE FEDERATION ALLOWS THEM TO PLAY GOD.

Nobody is trying to play God, except possibly Picard.


BTW, Trek Canon never describes the aftermath of this incident.

I like to imagine that once the situation became public knowledge, the public overwhelmingly said, “If the Ba’ku don’t want to show a shred of decency, screw them. Move them, by force if necessary, and get the metaphasic particles.”

Then the Ba’ku said, “After further reflection, we realized it’s selfish for 600 of us to get in the way of something that could have such great benefits for hundreds of billions of people. We agree to cooperate.”

Then the Federation Council said, “Ok, Son’a. The plan’s back on.”

Then the Son’a said, “You destroyed the collector and cold-bloodedly left our leader to die on it. We won’t be able to move forward with the procedure. Please convey our regrets to the billions of people whose medical care will suffer as a result.”

Then the teeming billions said, “Thank you, Captain Picard!”

Not.

 

[BillJ]

If the natives told them to leave I think they would seeing as THAT'S BEEN ESTABLISHED ON SCREEN! You know like with the Halkans who told Kirk NO when he wanted to mine their dilithium which was you know ONE OF THE REASONS THAT THE FEDERATION WAS BETTER THAN THE TERRAN EMPIRE, or when he had to negotiate with the Organians to use their planet as a baseb, or negotiating with the Capellans for their topaline which http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Mininghe wanted to get for the federation. In TOS the Federation never took what it wanted from other planets without some agreement in place that gave the natives something and if they told them to bug off THEY DID.

First, let's remember that they beamed down with phasers to negotiate for the topaline. Second, let's remember that they were going to force the Eminians to negotiate a treaty port in A Taste of Armageddon or the fact that they were going to forcibly evict settlers from Omicron Ceti III in This Side of Paradise or the fact that they were going to exterminate the Horta if it continued to get in the way of mining Pergium in The Devil in the Dark.

Let's also not forget that negotiating with the Organians would seem to be a gross violation of the Prime Directive on the surface. Spock says their approximately Class D on Richter's scale of cultures.

So I call bullshit on those who say the Federation's actions with regards to the Ba'ku were somehow inconsistent with what we've seen from the TV series. And we haven't even gotten into Modern Trek yet.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

I'll ignore the other points that you're wrong on, especially the PD, because first of all, the PD doesn't apply here,

Yes it does HAVE YOU WATCHED TNG? That was the entire reason they stayed out of Bajor's problems with the Cardassians. Sisko was even told it applied to the Bajorans in the freaking pilot of DS9 AFTER they had warp drive.



Only when used to justify letting the natives die or justifying not helping them. It's really a smart idea in cases where it's used to STOP you from either conquring, killing, or stealing a planet from it's natives. Plus YOUR OPINION OF IT DOESN'T MEAN YOU GET TO IGNORE THAT IT EXISTS.

But to respond to your point on old age: yes, it is basically a disease. It results in substantially diminished mental and physical abilities.

but wait, it's "natural", right? So can being born near-sighted. I guess we shouldn't try to help near-sighted folks by giving them glasses, contact lenses, or corrective surgery.

I don't have a problem with helping people's conditions EXCEPT if its done by Theft, kidnapping, and attempted murder, also using somethin ILLEGAL to pull of the theft and kidnapping.

well Dougherty's interpretation is that the PD doesn't apply here and he's an admiral, not some captain being led around by his penis. So I'll go with Dougherty's views on that.

And I'll take the writters' (AKA GOD IN THE CASE) word that THIS WAS WRONG TO THE POINT OF CALLING THE SONA THUGS AND NOBODY DISAGREEING over your justifications based on the word OF THIS EPISODE'S CORRUPT ADMIRAL. Also nice how you ignored EVER OTHER INSTANCE OF THE PD BEING INVOKED for the ONLY THIS ONE TIME instance of said Admiral. FYI the only exception to the PD is being human as in FROM EARTH, since the Baku are not THEN THERE IS NO EXCEPTION IN THEIR CASE.

I agree that the Feds and the Son'a shouldn't have used kidnapping or subterfuge. They should have tried negotiating some kind of compensation for the Baku to leave the planet, and if the Baku still refused, they should have been openly removed, no deception involved.

In other words abandon the federation's principals if they don't get their way


Plus don't you find it the least bit odd that THEY HID what they were doing I mean all we have on the subject of fed approval is the corrupt admiral's word on it and considering he let Ru'afo send armed ship to pretty much bring Riker back at gunpoint when he went to go talk to the fed coucil along with how fast said council changed their minds.

oh, and your arguments all seem to be about UFP involvement. What about the Son'a, who have no PD and have a claim to the planet. Would you object if THEY removed the Baku themselves without the UFP then shared the resources with others? And if so, why do you object?

Considering they would have to go through the space of a group depending on how far DS9 was at this time THEIR PROBABLY AT WAR WITH. I don't think they would get far (which is another thing wrong with this whole picture)

Imagine this hypothetical scenario in today’s world.

A new, relatively clean source of fuel is found. There is a massive reservoir of this fuel in Arctic waters. It can cut the cost of energy by 85% worldwide and prevent further environmental damage caused by burning fossil fuels.

Worthless as it will eventually run out and leave you at square one.

Is that a serious response?

Yes, I would rather the various nations of the world work on none finite sources of fuel and energy unless you like currently being at the mercy of nutcases becuase they have the oil and do you really think someone who ISN'T SPACE AMISH wouldn't have already set up shop and would already be able to sell said fuel source to the highest bidder.

Picard told them Ru’afo would never go ahead with the procedure while human shields were in place. That turned out not to be true, but the Ba’ku trusted him. He put them in harm’s way, told them everything was going to be fine, and is incredibly lucky they didn’t get killed as a result.

So it's Picard's fault Ru'afo is a complete monster obsessed with revenge at all cost, and who was also planning to kill all the Starfleet officers on his ship while killing the Baku

You’ll need to clarify this. What do you mean “old age is not a disease,” who has said the contrary, and what does it have to do with this discussion?

You may want to check Sonak's posts on this subject.

Yes, the Ba’ku’s planet. So they asserted when they exiled the Son’a.

By what right? The first small group of settlers to reach a planet owns the whole planet? Is that how property rights are supposed to work in the Star Trek universe?

Yes, that's called staking a claim thats how colonies are formed or do you honestly think that when we ever get to setting up shop on the other planets of the solar system the various countries of the world won't be carving up chunks of them. Hell Star Trek has shown the federation DOING THAT FOR YEARS, should they give them up to what ever neighboring power wants them. In fact the Feds moving into Gorn territory be settling on a planet THEY claimed is why they blew up said settlement, And seeing as the Baku predate the federation by a century I don't why they can't claim the planet

Yes, the holoship stunt was immoral and stupid. I think everybody agrees on that.

Yet nobody asks why they went to such efforts to hide it's existence for Picard and Co if everything was on the up and up.

Picard was the one who decided to start playing games with people’s lives, not Ru’afo.

Will Riker and the Enterprise crew would probably disagree with you since all they were doing was calling the federation council to complain about the situation yet Ru'afo sent ships to kill them.

I have nothing to add to sonak’s comment on this.


It is stated explicitly in the film that the planet would be uninhabitable “for generations.” The evacuation would be lengthy, not eternal. No reason is given to doubt that.

It might as well be enternal to the Baku seeing as the way Dougherty put it they none of them would be alive when the planet would be habitable again

Unlikely event? It is stated in the film, and nothing in the film contradicts that statement. It should be presumed correct by any reasonable standards of construction.

You do know what implying means right?

Becuase that's what he was doing, he was implying it would take a VERY LONG TIME for the planet to be habitable hence the use of GENERATIONS as in more than one as in likely LONGER THAN ANY CHARACTER IN THE FILM'S LIFETIME.


In fact here's another word used that you ignored RELOCATION which by your own admission is PERMANENT, Not TEMPORARY EVACUATION like you seem to think they said.


When are you going to get that this WASN'T going to be temporary. Nothing in the film even SAID or even IMPLYED that this was a temporary situation so where are you getting this.

What makes you think they’re entitled to business as usual? By what right do these 600 people own the billions of tons of metaphasic material in the rings?

It's their planet

We’re talking about an M-class planet here: millions of millions of billions of tons of planet, hundreds of millions of square miles of surface area, a natural resource that can revolutionize medical care for hundreds of billions of people... and the first six hundred people to plant a flag and establish a small settlement are entitled to claim ownership of the whole damn planet and tell the rest of the galaxy to go suck a lemon? Really?

Yes, there was nobody else there so the Baku were the offcial colony of whatever planet they were from that likely destroyed themsleves. And since said world is likely gone they are it's last representatives and thus HAVE THE RIGHT to as you say " tell the rest of the galaxy to go suck a lemon" If the feds don't like it than contact the Baku Homeworld.

Hell the Federation does THE SAME THING or should all those planets they colonized go to the Klingons, Romulans, Cardassians, Dominion, and ect.

Boy am I glad you don't run the federation as THERE WOULD BE NOTHING LEFT AFTER YOU LET THE RIVAL POWERS CARVE IT UP.

Seriously are you going to Tracy was right in the Omega Glory too?

Tracy was a lunatic. There was never any serum on Omega IV and there was never any solid reason to believe there was one. He committed mass murder in a mad quest for a fountain of youth that never existed. It wasn’t remotely similar to the situation in INS.

Is it becuase to me it looks like a Starfleet officer taking sides in an internal conflict becuase he thinks he can get a fountain of youth from it and tries to hide this from the heroes. The only difference is Tracy was nuts, more honest when the shit hit the fan, and their was no fountain of youth.

AND KNOW I DON'T THINK THE SUPPOSED SUPERIORITY OF THE FEDERATION ALLOWS THEM TO PLAY GOD.

Nobody is trying to play God, except possibly Picard.

Um

Admiral Dougherty: We'll simply be restoring them to their natural evolution.

Captain Picard: Who the hell are we to determine the next course of evolution for these people?

Forgot that part didn't you.

BTW, Trek Canon never describes the aftermath of this incident.

I like to imagine that once the situation became public knowledge, the public overwhelmingly said, “If the Ba’ku don’t want to show a shred of decency, screw them. Move them, by force if necessary, and get the metaphasic particles.”

Wow your version of the Federation is made up of assholes. Thankfully the one on Star Trek IS NOT. Or did you fail to ntoice Picard STILL IN STARFLEET AND COMMANDING THE ENTERPRISE and the fact that there was no sight of any useage of the metaphasics, and the fact that the collector was DESTROYED also the Sona were trying the whole reconciliation thing so its doubtful they will DESTOY THE PLANET THEIR TRYING TO LIVE ON.

Then the Ba’ku said, “After further reflection, we realized it’s selfish for 600 of us to get in the way of something that could have such great benefits for hundreds of billions of people. We agree to cooperate.”

Then the Federation Council said, “Ok, Son’a. The plan’s back on.”

Not likely, seeing as they were prabably pissed about the whole attempted kidnapping, not to mention the Sona are trying to RECONCLIE with the Baku, not to mention the Sona tried to kill Starfleet officers and in fact KILLED A STARFLEET ADMIRAL, the Sona would be lucky if the federation council didn't declare war on them just for that.

Plus the original idea for the film ended in the federation council chambers with the council chweing Picard out for stopping them (they actually had involvement in this version instead of us only having only Dougherty's word to go by) when said federation citizens march and a SUPPORT PICARD. So not really seeing your idea seeing as the same people were involved in what we ultimatly got.

Then the Son’a said, “You destroyed the collector and cold-bloodedly left our leader to die on it. We won’t be able to move forward with the procedure. Please convey our regrets to the billions of people whose medical care will suffer as a result.”

Then the teeming billions said, “Thank you, Captain Picard!”

Not.

Yeah Trek canon disagrees with you SINCE HE'S STILL CAPTAIN OF THE ENTERPRISE, plus their leader tried to commit mass murder, killed a fed admiral, attack the fed flagship, tried to kill fed officers, they would probably want to get as far away from being associated with Ru'afo as possible so Starfleet doesn't kick their asses.

Plus the federation could also try to you know study the rings and learn to replicate this fountain of youth WITHOUT destroying a planet in the process.

Plus you're version of the aftermth would never be cannon any way THE FILM WRITERS THOUGHT THE FEDERATION WAS IMMORAL HERE, you know the people WHO ACTUALLY CONTROLLED THE FRANCHISE THEN. In fact they thought this so much the original idea for the film had the inhabitants of the planet DYING if they left becuase they needed the constant exporsure to the maggufin to survive, meaning the federation would be conducting genocide to get to it.

If the natives told them to leave I think they would seeing as THAT'S BEEN ESTABLISHED ON SCREEN! You know like with the Halkans who told Kirk NO when he wanted to mine their dilithium which was you know ONE OF THE REASONS THAT THE FEDERATION WAS BETTER THAN THE TERRAN EMPIRE, or when he had to negotiate with the Organians to use their planet as a baseb, or negotiating with the Capellans for their topaline which he wanted to get for the federation. In TOS the Federation never took what it wanted from other planets without some agreement in place that gave the natives something and if they told them to bug off THEY DID.

First, let's remember that they beamed down with phasers to negotiate for the topaline.

And unless they used them to force the topaline from them WHICH THEY DIDN'T that doesn't really mean jack seeing as THEY DO IT ALL THE TIME, plus THEY GAVE THEIR WEAPONS TO THE CAPELLANS. Also considering what happened to a member of the landing party, that probably wasn't a very good idea.

Second, let's remember that they were going to force the Eminians to negotiate a treaty port in A Taste of Armageddon

becuase their war threatened other people not involved in it, having one of your ships destroyed in the area becuase two groups don't understand the concept of neutrality seems like a good reason to get said groups to knock it off.

or the fact that they were going to forcibly evict settlers from Omicron Ceti III in This Side of Paradise

Actually they thought everyone would be dead what with the deadly cosmic radiation stuff hitting the planet and all and then they found out the were alive because they were controlled by planet spores and wanted to use said spores on the Enterprise crew until Kirk put a stop to it (and considering this was basically a mind control enslavement by aliens situation, there don't seem to be any moral issues there) after which the conlonists concluded their colony was a failure and seeing as the spores were they only thing that allowed them to live on the planet CHOSE to leave becuase the planet WAS DANGEROUS, as in Kirk and Co. had a valid reason to move them.

or the fact that they were going to exterminate the Horta if it continued to get in the way of mining Pergium in The Devil in the Dark.

No they were going to exterminate it becuase it was killing the miners until they found out "she" was only protecting "her" children after that Kirk got in the way of an angry mob of miners to stop them from killing the horta and in fact the miners seemed pretty shocked and apalled when they learned they were accidently killing kids to the point that the compromise about working with the horta didn't seem that hard to sell to them

Let's also not forget that negotiating with the Organians would seem to be a gross violation of the Prime Directive on the surface. Spock says their approximately Class D on Richter's scale of cultures.

To be fair the PD wasn't that well defined back then and the Klingons were also interested in the planet so it can be said the Federation probably did want the klingosn to 1) have a beach head to invade them from and 2) Thought they were doing the Organians a favor since according to Kirk they respect planetary ownership while the klingons are basically "do what we say or die". Plus Kirk seemed more concerned about the Organians living under klingon occupation even at the point where he didn't think much of them so klingon subjects probably weren't treated that well especially with the whole executing large numbers of the native population for slights made against them.

So I call bullshit on those who say the Federation's actions with regards to the Ba'ku were somehow inconsistent with what we've seen from the TV series. And we haven't even gotten into Modern Trek yet.

Condsidering how debunked your examples are you might want to bring Modern Trek out.

 

[Captrek]

I’m not even going to bother with Hartzilla2007’s latest round of nonsense, but want to make one more observation.

The Ba’ku are intended to be sympathetic because they live the simple modest life of the “space Amish,” but if you accept the claim that they are the rightful owners of the planet, these 600 Ba’ku are among the wealthiest people in the galaxy. They are a very small number of über-über-über-über-rich who discovered an incredibly bountiful planet, claim they’re entitled to everything they laid their eyes on, refuse to share, and don’t care how their selfishness impacts the healthcare of hundreds of billions of others. It’s so Tea Party it’s ridiculous (though a key difference is that the Tea Party goes to bat for wealthy people who for the most part have earned their wealth rather than stumbling on it). I’ll give the movie this much: it’s eerily prescient.


Ugh, OK, this one part I just have to respond to:

Picard told them Ru’afo would never go ahead with the procedure while human shields were in place. That turned out not to be true, but the Ba’ku trusted him. He put them in harm’s way, told them everything was going to be fine, and is incredibly lucky they didn’t get killed as a result.

So it's Picard's fault Ru'afo is a complete monster obsessed with revenge at all cost

If you use human shields to try to deter someone who’s enough of a monster not to be deterred by them, and they get killed, then you bear responsibility for that result. The practice is condemned by practically every civilization on Earth, especially when the shields are children. Decent human beings don’t do it. It’s not just wrong, it’s evil.