Learning to love "Insurrection"

[Captrek]

yeah, as mentioned the holo-ship deception seems out of character for Starfleet, but it was necessitated by the assumption that the Baku were a low-tech, primitive culture. Also, it's possible that the higher-ups didn't know the EXACT plan for removal, they'd left the details to Dougherty, who'd devised the holo-ship plan with his Starfleet crew and the Son'a.

The best part of the holoship plan is the punchline: “In a few days, you're relocated on a similar planet without ever realising it.”

The Ba’ku never leave the confines of their village, never explore the local geography, and never look up. As farmers, they’re unaware of the local ecosystem. They’ll have no idea they’ve been moved until they start noticing the symptoms of aging.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Question. Wouldn't the acquisition of this healing power help stem the tide of the Dominion War? You know. That war the Federation is currently fighting? The war that those special talented individuals have concluded that we would lose?

That depends on what point the war is at, if its after the Romulans joined up then the Feds were winning, so gaining allies wouldn't be that much of a problem.

 

[T'Girl]

The best part of the holoship plan is the punchline: “In a few days, you're relocated on a similar planet without ever realising it.”

I believe the line means you won't have realized that a relocation was taking place, while it was in the process of taking place.

 

[sonak]

The best part of the holoship plan is the punchline: “In a few days, you're relocated on a similar planet without ever realising it.”

I believe the line means you won't have realized that a relocation was taking place, while it was in the process of taking place.

Mmm, I have to agree with captrek's interpretation. The line is "without EVER realizing it," not "without realizing it," which would indicate a more temporary state of lack of realization.

 

[Captrek]

The best part of the holoship plan is the punchline: “In a few days, you're relocated on a similar planet without ever realising it.”

I believe the line means you won't have realized that a relocation was taking place, while it was in the process of taking place.

Mmm, I have to agree with captrek's interpretation. The line is "without EVER realizing it," not "without realizing it," which would indicate a more temporary state of lack of realization.

Also, Picard points out that it will be a “similar” planet.

Maybe you can interpret that word as Picard’s way of saying, “By the way, not that this has anything to do with the topic we’re discussing, but I think the destination planet will be similar enough to this one so that you can continue to live your agrarian lifestyle with little change, because Ru’afo is a swell guy who wouldn’t want to disrupt your lives any more than necessary,” but that’s a hell of a stretch.

If the word “similar” is assumed to have anything to do with the rest of the sentence or the rest of the conversation, then the clear intent is that the relocated Ba’ku are not supposed to realize they have been relocated.

Of course, that’s so completely moronic that it’s easy to understand the desire to interpret it away. However, you should be conscious of the fact that any such reinterpretation is a fanwank that may address a flaw, but diverges from the clear intent of the filmmakers.

 

[JarodRussell]

Question. Wouldn't the acquisition of this healing power help stem the tide of the Dominion War? You know. That war the Federation is currently fighting? The war that those special talented individuals have concluded that we would lose? Imagine how many alien societies would have thought differently when presented with the "Nonaggression Pact" if the Federation was the only side with the means of Increasing life spans, curing diseases, and restoring bodily functions like eye sight!

Nah. Better to let Federation have less allies, millions of lives lost and have the Dominion wage genocidal acts on the galaxy instead of inconveniencing 600 people. Those poor, poor Baku.

The Son'a are Dominion allies.

 

[sonak]

Question. Wouldn't the acquisition of this healing power help stem the tide of the Dominion War? You know. That war the Federation is currently fighting? The war that those special talented individuals have concluded that we would lose? Imagine how many alien societies would have thought differently when presented with the "Nonaggression Pact" if the Federation was the only side with the means of Increasing life spans, curing diseases, and restoring bodily functions like eye sight!

Nah. Better to let Federation have less allies, millions of lives lost and have the Dominion wage genocidal acts on the galaxy instead of inconveniencing 600 people. Those poor, poor Baku.

The Son'a are Dominion allies.

I thought they were more like "friendly neutrals" who were just supplying some Ketrace White for money. That's hardly being an "ally."

 

[T'Girl]

When Riker said that the Sona were producing the narcotic ketracel-white, I felt that he meant that the Sona were not so much providing it to the Dominion, but were selling it as a street drug.

Ketracel-white can not be replicated, and might be the latest trendy "recreational" drug in the Alpha Quadrant.

At least that what I got from "the narcotic."

 

[Captrek]

When Riker said that the Sona were producing the narcotic ketracel-white, I felt that he meant that the Sona were not so much providing it to the Dominion, but were selling it as a street drug.

Ketracel-white can not be replicated, and might be the latest trendy "recreational" drug in the Alpha Quadrant.

At least that what I got from "the narcotic."

My guess is that the line originally said “Ketracel-white,” then somebody pointed out that half the audience has no idea what that is and wouldn’t recognize it is a Bad Thing™, so it was changed to “the narcotic Ketracel-white” for their sake.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Question. Wouldn't the acquisition of this healing power help stem the tide of the Dominion War? You know. That war the Federation is currently fighting? The war that those special talented individuals have concluded that we would lose? Imagine how many alien societies would have thought differently when presented with the "Nonaggression Pact" if the Federation was the only side with the means of Increasing life spans, curing diseases, and restoring bodily functions like eye sight!

Nah. Better to let Federation have less allies, millions of lives lost and have the Dominion wage genocidal acts on the galaxy instead of inconveniencing 600 people. Those poor, poor Baku.

The Son'a are Dominion allies.

I thought they were more like "friendly neutrals" who were just supplying some Ketrace White for money. That's hardly being an "ally."

The in DS9 the Dominion mentioned haveing to defend something of theirs which implies and alliance.

When Riker said that the Sona were producing the narcotic ketracel-white, I felt that he meant that the Sona were not so much providing it to the Dominion

As stated above DS9 implied they were Dominion allies.

 

[Captrek]

The Son'a are Dominion allies.

I thought they were more like "friendly neutrals" who were just supplying some Ketrace White for money. That's hardly being an "ally."

The in DS9 the Dominion mentioned haveing to defend something of theirs which implies and alliance.

When Riker said that the Sona were producing the narcotic ketracel-white, I felt that he meant that the Sona were not so much providing it to the Dominion

As stated above DS9 implied they were Dominion allies.

The mention of them on DS9 came several months after Insurrection. Of course the Son’a sided against the Federation after the events of the film! Their loyalties at the time of the film are more ambiguous.

 

[JarodRussell]

When Riker said that the Sona were producing the narcotic ketracel-white, I felt that he meant that the Sona were not so much providing it to the Dominion, but were selling it as a street drug.

Ketracel-white can not be replicated, and might be the latest trendy "recreational" drug in the Alpha Quadrant.

At least that what I got from "the narcotic."

I've seen DS9. It's not a recreational drug. It's not even a drug, it's an enzyme that the Jem'Hadar physiology can't produce.

 

[Captrek]

Adventures of a 20th-century Picard:

The government is building a dam. There is a small commune that found a really cool spot upriver long ago and has been idling there ever since. The government comes along and tries to make them leave.

Captain Picard hooks up romantically with a woman from the commune, protests its removal, and helps the residents chain themselves to trees. After they resist attempts at forcible removal, the dam foreman says “Fuck it, I’m going to close the dam anyway, and they can leave or drown, their choice.” Picard blows up the dam and cold-bloodedly leaves the foreman to die.

Yay!

 

[T'Girl]

^ The following winter, deprived of electrical power from the dam, millions freeze to death.

Go team-Baku!

 

[JarodRussell]

Adventures of a 20th-century Picard:

The government is building a dam. There is a small commune that found a really cool spot upriver long ago and has been idling there ever since. The government comes along and tries to make them leave.

Captain Picard hooks up romantically with a woman from the commune, protests its removal, and helps the residents chain themselves to trees. After they resist attempts at forcible removal, the dam foreman says “Fuck it, I’m going to close the dam anyway, and they can leave or drown, their choice.” Picard blows up the dam and cold-bloodedly leaves the foreman to die.

Yay!

Except that the Ba'ku didn't have a choice when he started the collector. Half were captured in an unshielded area of the ship, and the rest of them were on the planet. And he ordered an attack on a Federation starship, trying to completely destroy it. And killed a starfleet admiral.

 

[sonak]

Adventures of a 20th-century Picard:

The government is building a dam. There is a small commune that found a really cool spot upriver long ago and has been idling there ever since. The government comes along and tries to make them leave.

Captain Picard hooks up romantically with a woman from the commune, protests its removal, and helps the residents chain themselves to trees. After they resist attempts at forcible removal, the dam foreman says “Fuck it, I’m going to close the dam anyway, and they can leave or drown, their choice.” Picard blows up the dam and cold-bloodedly leaves the foreman to die.

Yay!

Except that the Ba'ku didn't have a choice when he started the collector. Half were captured in an unshielded area of the ship, and the rest of them were on the planet. And he ordered an attack on a Federation starship, trying to completely destroy it. And killed a starfleet admiral.

well by the end of the film, they were "stacking the deck" against Ru'afo as the bad guy so they had him going over the top with these actions. The writers realized that Picard and the Baku would lose on the merits of the so-called "dilemma" so they pretty much had to do this. Make Ru'afo just a frustrated, sympathetic guy and the audience starts wondering even MORE about why they're supposed to side with a bunch of self-centered Luddites over the interests of the entire Federation.

Further, I find it absurd that Picard's actions ON HIS OWN AUTHORITY cost the Federation a revolutionary medical resource and a potential ally during the middle of what was a desperate war, and the UFP was just fine with this at the end.

Over on DS9, they were trying to be the gritty, realistic Trek and Insurrection was pissing all over that.

 

[CaptainStoner]

It's actually not that bad of a film. People fill the plot holes with what they want to. For me, it's clear the holoship was a half-baked violation of rights, the Collector almost certainly would not have worked out as planned, and Picard is standing for temperance and diplomacy - the very thing that we point out would defuse the entire conflict of the film.
In all likelihood, by making good with the ba'ku the Federation has a much better chance of doing a longer (and legitimate) scientific study of the rings and the particles pros and cons on human (and other) physiology.

 

[sonak]

It's actually not that bad of a film. People fill the plot holes with what they want to. For me, it's clear the holoship was a half-baked violation of rights, the Collector almost certainly would not have worked out as planned, and Picard is standing for temperance and diplomacy - the very thing that we point out would defuse the entire conflict of the film.
In all likelihood, by making good with the ba'ku the Federation has a much better chance of doing a longer (and legitimate) scientific study of the rings and the particles pros and cons on human (and other) physiology.

this is another one of those respones where you have to fanwank things that aren't in evidence in order to defend the premise of the film.

There's no reason to think that the collector wouldn't work or that their would be any negative side effects of the particles, as we certainly don't see any during the film when their having their effects on the Enterprise crew and Dougherty's team has been studying this already for a while.


And how does Picard stand for diplomacy here? He never even brings up asking the Baku to agree to voluntary removal or asks them about the issue at all. He sides against the Son'a and works against them from the beginning.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Adventures of a 20th-century Picard:

The government is building a dam. There is a small commune that found a really cool spot upriver long ago and has been idling there ever since. The government comes along and tries to make them leave.

Captain Picard hooks up romantically with a woman from the commune, protests its removal, and helps the residents chain themselves to trees. After they resist attempts at forcible removal, the dam foreman says “Fuck it, I’m going to close the dam anyway, and they can leave or drown, their choice.” Picard blows up the dam and cold-bloodedly leaves the foreman to die.

Yay!

Except that the Ba'ku didn't have a choice when he started the collector. Half were captured in an unshielded area of the ship, and the rest of them were on the planet. And he ordered an attack on a Federation starship, trying to completely destroy it. And killed a starfleet admiral.

well by the end of the film, they were "stacking the deck" against Ru'afo as the bad guy

Um he's the leader of the usual bad guy trek empire that goes around enslaving people after conquering their planets, they use illegal WMDs, sell drugs/substances a known federation enemy uses to keep their soldiers alive, and are even refered to as thugs by Picard with Dougherty pretty much agreeing with the assessment AFTER he threatens to DESTROY the Enterprise. Heck Riker and Troi even question why the feds became allies with the Son'a.

They really didn't need to go far to point out he's the bad guy at that point.

 

[Captrek]

The dam foreman was a dick too. And it happened during World War II.