Latecomer To This: JANEWAY DIED?!?

[Lynx]

They do NOT have a peculiar way of showing it. They have a DIFFERENT way of showing it than YOU. That is not a bad thing, just a different thing.

And if you can't understand that, this conversation is worthless.

Well, very different then.

I mean, they state that they are fans of the show and love the characters. Then they kill off one of them, in that case the main character permanently, ruining their own possibilities to come up with great stories in the future about that character and at the same time making many fans of that character sad and annnoyed. Not to mention that those fans might turn their backs on the books as well because of that and that they will be remembered by those fans as "those who killed Janeway and ruined the relaunch for us".

That's a very different way of showing their affection.

 

[Thrawn]

They do NOT have a peculiar way of showing it. They have a DIFFERENT way of showing it than YOU. That is not a bad thing, just a different thing.

And if you can't understand that, this conversation is worthless.

Well, very different then.

I mean, they state that they are fans of the show and love the characters. Then they kill off one of them, in that case the main character permanently, ruining their own possibilities to come up with great stories in the future about that character and at the same time making many fans of that character sad and annnoyed. Not to mention that those fans might turn their backs on the books as well because of that and that they will be remembered by those fans as "those who killed Janeway and ruined the relaunch for us".

That's a very different way of showing their affection.

Have you ever watched anything written by Joss Whedon? This would be Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Angel, Firefly, or the movie Serenity.

I'm going somewhere with this; I'm just curious if you'd have any context I could build on, or if I have to describe it from scratch.

 

[Semah]

They do NOT have a peculiar way of showing it. They have a DIFFERENT way of showing it than YOU. That is not a bad thing, just a different thing.

And if you can't understand that, this conversation is worthless.

Well, very different then.

I mean, they state that they are fans of the show and love the characters. Then they kill off one of them, in that case the main character permanently, ruining their own possibilities to come up with great stories in the future about that character and at the same time making many fans of that character sad and annnoyed. Not to mention that those fans might turn their backs on the books as well because of that and that they will be remembered by those fans as "those who killed Janeway and ruined the relaunch for us".

That's a very different way of showing their affection.

Have you ever watched anything written by Joss Whedon? This would be Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Angel, Firefly, or the movie Serenity.

I'm going somewhere with this; I'm just curious if you'd have any context I could build on, or if I have to describe it from scratch.

Wash!! No!!!!!

 

[Thrawn]

Wash!! No!!!!!

Not to mention Kendra, Joyce Summers, Tara, Anya, Doyle, Cordelia, Wesley, and Book.

For starters.

 

[Lynx]

They do NOT have a peculiar way of showing it. They have a DIFFERENT way of showing it than YOU. That is not a bad thing, just a different thing.

And if you can't understand that, this conversation is worthless.

Well, very different then.

I mean, they state that they are fans of the show and love the characters. Then they kill off one of them, in that case the main character permanently, ruining their own possibilities to come up with great stories in the future about that character and at the same time making many fans of that character sad and annnoyed. Not to mention that those fans might turn their backs on the books as well because of that and that they will be remembered by those fans as "those who killed Janeway and ruined the relaunch for us".

That's a very different way of showing their affection.

Have you ever watched anything written by Joss Whedon? This would be Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Angel, Firefly, or the movie Serenity.

I'm going somewhere with this; I'm just curious if you'd have any context I could build on, or if I have to describe it from scratch.

I did watch "Buffy The vampire Slayer" occasionally.

 

[Thrawn]

Ok.

Joss Whedon, for no reason other than storytelling desire, has killed at least 8 and maybe more main characters. The one time when an actor wanted to leave, he actually didn't kill off that character. They drove away.

All three of his series are fundamentally about hope and optimism.

Do you think he hates his own creation?

 

[Semah]

Wash!! No!!!!!

Not to mention Kendra, Joyce Summers, Tara, Anya, Doyle, Cordelia, Wesley, and Book.

For starters.

Jenny Calendar was particularly hard to take.


What we're saying Lynx, is that as fans of Joss's work, we know full well what it's like to have a beloved character die off. I would go so far as to say that I had more affection for a number of them than you did Janeway. There were moments where I wanted to drive to LA and run Joss Whedon over with my car.

But you know what. In most of their cases, their deaths led to great stories. How the other characters dealt with the aftermath made the shows shine. There were consequences for actions, there was growth. And though I will never have them back, I would never consider stopping watching because they are gone.

 

[Thrawn]

I'm not even trying to go that far Semah, I'm just trying to get across the idea that an author can both love a character and kill them, because they think it makes a better story.

Apparently, this is beyond Lynx's grasp.

 

[Lynx]

Ok.

Joss Whedon, for no reason other than storytelling desire, has killed at least 8 and maybe more main characters. The one time when an actor wanted to leave, he actually didn't kill off that character. They drove away.

All three of his series are fundamentally about hope and optimism.

Do you think he hates his own creation?

No, I don't think so.

But I know too little about his stories to comment on why he did kill off those characters or why he did it.

The only thing I did react on was when they made Willow evil. That was downright stupid. At that time I saw it as if they had ran out of ideas for the series.

 

[Thrawn]

Ok.

Joss Whedon, for no reason other than storytelling desire, has killed at least 8 and maybe more main characters. The one time when an actor wanted to leave, he actually didn't kill off that character. They drove away.

All three of his series are fundamentally about hope and optimism.

Do you think he hates his own creation?

No, I don't think so.

But I know too little about his stories to comment on why he did kill off those characters or why he did it.

The only thing I did react on was when they made Willow evil. That was downright stupid. At that time I saw it as if they had ran out of ideas for the series.

Whereas I saw it as one of the most beautifully affecting arcs of the show, and commended them on their storytelling daring.

Just because you don't like something doesn't mean it's uncreative - will you at least agree with me on that much?

 

[Sci]

The only thing I did react on was when they made Willow evil. That was downright stupid. At that time I saw it as if they had ran out of ideas for the series.

They didn't make her evil. They made her enraged and irrational and lost in grief, which is very different.

 

[Semah]

Ok.

Joss Whedon, for no reason other than storytelling desire, has killed at least 8 and maybe more main characters. The one time when an actor wanted to leave, he actually didn't kill off that character. They drove away.

All three of his series are fundamentally about hope and optimism.

Do you think he hates his own creation?

No, I don't think so.

But I know too little about his stories to comment on why he did kill off those characters or why he did it.

The only thing I did react on was when they made Willow evil. That was downright stupid. At that time I saw it as if they had ran out of ideas for the series.

I thought it was stupid as hell when I was originally watching it. But then I kept watching and it led to one of the most emotionally satisfying season finales in the whole show.

 

[Lynx]

I'm not even trying to go that far Semah, I'm just trying to get across the idea that an author can both love a character and kill them, because they think it makes a better story.

Apparently, this is beyond Lynx's grasp.

1. Is it possible for me to reply before I'm accused of being stupid, narrow-minded, evil, ignorant, insulting or whatsoever?

2. I would be happy if we tried to avoid personal attacks.

3. Where I live it's two minutes past midnight right now and I got to work tomorrow so I will close the shop for now and try to get some sleep.

 

[DimesDan]

The only thing I did react on was when they made Willow evil. That was downright stupid. At that time I saw it as if they had ran out of ideas for the series.

They didn't make her evil. They made her enraged and irrational and lost in grief, which is very different.

And something very very Human!

As for Wash dying, I still get a tear in my eye when ever I see Serenity.

 

[William Leisner]

The only thing I did react on was when they made Willow evil. That was downright stupid. At that time I saw it as if they had ran out of ideas for the series.

They didn't make her evil. They made her enraged and irrational and lost in grief, which is very different.

QFT.

And Lynx? It is the fact that you automatically apply the word "stupid" to these things you dislike, far more than anything else, that is earning you the reactions you're getting around here.

 

[Thrawn]

We've been through this before, I know, but let me try this one more time.

1) It is essential to my enjoyment of a story that main character death be allowed, and occur every so often.

2) It is apparently essential to your enjoyment, Lynx, that the opposite be the case; at least for characters you like.

So, let's say you're Marco Palmieri, or Margaret Clark. You know some fans have opinion #1, you know some fans have opinion #2. You know that if you write stories to appeal to #1, you'll piss off #2, and lose those sales. You know that if you write stories to appeal to #2, you'll piss off #1, and lose those sales.

What do you do?

Well, for starters, how about killing one character, raising the stakes and pleasing those in category #1, and then bringing back another, making sure you guarantee to those in category #2 you'll never do it unless you think it's worth it.

Seems like just about the best compromise I can imagine. Could you do better?

 

[kimc]

^ Well I see what you're saying and I'm also a big nuBSG fan. Now there's a show where characters drop like flies!

For me though this is more than a simple case of character death. Janeway, love her or hate her was the first woman captain on a Trek show. To a lot of us that's a very big deal. The way she was killed of in a TNG novel of all places in order to advance the other characters or whatever the motivation was is a blow. I don't know how else to describe it.

It's a shame some folks don't get that. I'm not saying I'm expecting everyone to fall into complete agreement that she shouldn't have been killed but I guess I'm surprised that people don't realize how it could be more than just another character death to a lot of fans.

 

[Thrawn]

I'm not even trying to go that far Semah, I'm just trying to get across the idea that an author can both love a character and kill them, because they think it makes a better story.

Apparently, this is beyond Lynx's grasp.

1. Is it possible for me to reply before I'm accused of being stupid, narrow-minded, evil, ignorant, insulting or whatsoever?

2. I would be happy if we tried to avoid personal attacks.

3. Where I live it's two minutes past midnight right now and I got to work tomorrow so I will close the shop for now and try to get some sleep.

Heh. That wasn't a personal attack Lynx; it was a statement of apparent fact based on available evidence.

 

[Semah]

The only thing I did react on was when they made Willow evil. That was downright stupid. At that time I saw it as if they had ran out of ideas for the series.

They didn't make her evil. They made her enraged and irrational and lost in grief, which is very different.

And something very very Human!

As for Wash dying, I still get a tear in my eye when ever I see Serenity.

Hmm...I have no idea what you're talking about.

 

[Thrawn]

^ Well I see what you're saying and I'm also a big nuBSG fan. Now there's a show where characters drop like flies!

For me though this is more than a simple case of character death. Janeway, love her or hate her was the first woman captain on a Trek show. To a lot of us that's a very big deal. The way she was killed of in a TNG novel of all places in order to advance the other characters or whatever the motivation was is a blow. I don't know how else to describe it.

It's a shame some folks don't get that. I'm not saying I'm expecting everyone to fall into complete agreement that she shouldn't have been killed but I guess I'm surprised that people don't realize how it could be more than just another character death to a lot of fans.

I realize this is a touchy subject, but I've been really enjoying this conversation so far, so I hope you'll allow me to turn your argument around for a moment.

Yes, the first woman captain on a Trek show was a very, very big deal. I don't claim to understand that in all of its emotional impact, but I appreciate those for whom that deeply matters. But isn't it just as sexist to say that she's off limits, for twists that would be allowed to happen to other characters, just because she is a woman?

It's like in one of Joss Whedon's shows; he portrayed one of the first non-caricature lesbian relationships on television, and then killed off one of those characters. You know how many people said he killed her because she was a lesbian? Lemme tell you - TONS. But it was nonsense; he killed her because it changed the life of the other character, in much the same way had she been straight.

And what he said was "should she be off limits to die, because she's a lesbian? Isn't that just as unfair?"

Janeway was a strong and vital character, and it's for that reason that I think her death will matter so much. Full Circle may very well be the greatest tribute to her importance as a character ever written; I think her death would give a huge opportunity to tell a story like that.