Latecomer To This: JANEWAY DIED?!?

[captcalhoun]

Re: Catering to the Janeway Fans?

i don't care for Janeway one way or the other. as far as her death goes, i like only because it introduces clear jeopardy to the lives of the main casts of the 24C tv shows, meaning we now know none of them are bulletproof, any could die and that adds to the dramatic tension.

 

[Thrawn]

As for the statement that all the other characters will be involved, I do hope that they will leave Kes outside this. I just hate the thought of what they can do to continue the destruction of the character.

Well, except the last time she appeared in a book Marco edited, you actually liked how they treated her, but let's let that slide.

No, Kes and Neelix probably won't be in this book; I misspoke (misposted? whatever).

 

[Sci]

Another bone of contention for me. Poor Tuvie is all but ignored. As for Janeway the last decent story featuring her was "Isabo's Shirt".

He's a main character in the Titan books...fits in very well.

Really!?

Yes. Really. He's already had more moments to shine in four TTN novels than he had in seven years of VOY.

 

[Thrawn]

Yes, but your problem with that book is not that she was humiliated mocked and killed, it's that it was a bad story. Don't conflate the two.

Why not? I think it was a bad story in part because a character was humiliated, mocked and killed pointlessly. And I think it was a pointless death because it was a terrible book. I can't seperate the two; they feed off each other.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

Fair enough, and I do see your point.

What I mean is, it's possible to imagine a story in which Janeway is humiliated, mocked, and/or killed that was a good story; this just wasn't it. Humiliating, mocking, and/or killing a character does not, on the face of it, create a bad story. It may be a kind of story that's much harder to execute well, but it doesn't automatically mean the story won't work.

 

[Gorf]

Re: Catering to the Janeway Fans?

On the other hand, taking all the post-Nemesis fiction and weaving it together so that all the books relate very well might increase their sales, as fans of one line get caught up in others.

It's an odd assumption, to me, that just because they are not getting sales from the "Janeway stories only!" crowd, it follows that overall sales are decreasing.

I could swear that I didnt write decreasing sales.

I talked about increasing sales, but maybe I didnt make that clear enough. I've simply tried to turn this whole 'killing Janeway' argument around and looking at it from a different angle. Something you havent done here so far.

Whether weaving all the post-Nemesis fiction together will increase sales will depend on whether fans of other series will buy books about other shows.

They're free to do so and I hope it works. It just doesnt work for all and since they never really explored the Voyager show in book form they'll never know if that would have worked either, but as I said, I'm not too upset. I havent read for years and I'm not going to cry over this. I'll simply spend my money otherwise.

 

[Steve Roby]

He's a main character in the Titan books...fits in very well.

Really!?

Absolutely. Christie Golden didn't seem comfortable with Tuvok in her relaunch novels; judging by the counselor character she created, she's probably not comfortable with writing characters who don't gush emotions in vast quantities. I often thought he was underused on Voyager, considering he was supposed to be one of Janeway's oldest friends and a close confidante (the latter role taken over pretty quickly by Chakotay), but it looked like the Voyager relaunch was going to move him and Seven (another logical and not too emotional character) to the sidelines.

Splitting up the TNG team into two ships' crews, as Nemesis did, meant that each had to bring in some new senior staff members. I was glad to see Tuvok appear in Titan, and I think the series is doing a good job with him.

 

[ClayinCA]

He's a main character in the Titan books...fits in very well.

Really!?

Yes. Really. He's already had more moments to shine in four TTN novels than he had in seven years of VOY.

Kimc, you should absolutely read the Titan books if you are a fan of Tuvok. Sci is right on about Tuvok being better used in the Titan books than he was on Voyager -- which, for me, is not so much a comment on how he badly he might have been used in Voyager as a comment on how well he's been used in Titan.

 

[DGCatAniSiri]

Re: Catering to the Janeway Fans?

And, either way, the impact of the death I feel is more important than the death itself, so Full Circle is really what we should be basing this on, and we can't yet.

I quite agree with this - Janeway's death SHOULD have an effect on the Voyager crew, and we'll be seeing that in Full Circle. Likewise, while I think that Destiny could have mentioned Tuvok's reactions to her death, as he was a good friend of hers, three things keep me from being upset about it - He's a Vulcan, so he doesn't display his emotions, the trilogy was set several months after the fact, so he's had some reaction time, and he wasn't a major focus for the trilogy. However, I do expect to see something from him in Full Circle.

But ultimately, Janeway's death would have a real effect on the Voyager crew, but not any of the crews from the other series because they didn't know her personally. Even Picard, who greets her cordially in Nemesis, really haven't had the kind of relationship with Janeway that really says that they're friends or even friendly. And because they're the characters who we've been seeing things through, we haven't had our reactions.

You know, at this point, I wonder why we keep discussing - no, bickering, really - on this, since we're clearly divided on the issue into the 'bring her back' and 'let her stay dead' camps. Can we just agree to disagree and leave these topics alone already?

 

[Defcon]

Re: Catering to the Janeway Fans?

The editorial stance at the moment is that she's more "important"/helpful for the future Voyager saga being dead, than she could ever be as an Admiral. What's so hard to understand about that?

It's not hard to understand and I'm not arguing the 'editorial stance' as you call it. They (and you) are entitled to view other fans and shows as more important and obviously they do just that. I just find it sad, is all.

Obviously is it hard to understand, since Brit didn't seem to get it.

They (and you) are entitled to view other fans and shows as more important and obviously they do just that.

How so? Because they killed a character? The death of characters was often part of the Star Trek series and since the books are the only continuation of 24th Century Star Trek in the foreseeable future I see no reason why the shouldn't continue to use this story element.

 

[Sci]

As for Beyer being a Voyager fan, OK I did read her statement but it didn't say anything to me. She calls herself a fan and claims that she loved the series but I do think she's showing it in a very strange way by participating in the killing off of the main character of the series.

Tell me, Lynx, how do you feel about the fact that William Shakespeare killed Romeo, Mercutio, Juliet, Hamlet, Ophelia, Othello, Desdemona, Macbeth, Lear, and Cordelia at the end of their respective plays? Do you think he did this out of spite, out of dislike of the characters, out of a deliberate desire to humiliate, annihilate, and destroy them?

Or do you think he had some other reason for bringing them all to their deaths?

Please, read Brit's comment. It says everything I wanted to say.

So, you acknowledge that an author might have other reasons for killing a character than malice?

Again, I repeat: Why can Trek not do a tragic story even as most of it is not tragic? Does this mean it can't do a comedic story, or a mystery story, or a romance, just because most of it isn't?

 

[Thrawn]

Re: Catering to the Janeway Fans?

And Gorf, I do see your point.

But, for instance, I never bought the Voyager relaunch novels before, because I didn't much like Golden and hadn't heard great things. But the death of Janeway and the new direction for the relaunch grabbed me instantly, so much so that I even went back and bought Golden's books to be ready for Full Circle.

Anecdotal evidence admittedly means dick-all when it comes to discussing sales, but I just mean it isn't a one way road. This decision may well have increased sales, despite the decision you disagree with.

 

[Thrawn]

Re: Catering to the Janeway Fans?

You know, at this point, I wonder why we keep discussing - no, bickering, really - on this, since we're clearly divided on the issue into the 'bring her back' and 'let her stay dead' camps. Can we just agree to disagree and leave these topics alone already?

I'll steal a response from someone else that I read on this board:

Have you MET the internet?

 

[Trent Roman]

What I mean is, it's possible to imagine a story in which Janeway is humiliated, mocked, and/or killed that was a good story; this just wasn't it. Humiliating, mocking, and/or killing a character does not, on the face of it, create a bad story. It may be a kind of story that's much harder to execute well, but it doesn't automatically mean the story won't work.

Possibly, but I don't know what such a thing would look like. To me, the point of putting characters through physical or emotional wringers is to, conversely, show how the characters overcome, to speak to the strength of the human(oid) condition. To torture the characters and then just kill them is more Eli Roth than Star Trek. EDIT: I think, for instance, of the suffering Riker endured as a hostage during the Tezwa affair, which then played into Riker's carpe diem arc with regards to Troi and having a command of his own. If, midway through the book, Kinchwan had gotten bored, walked into the pit and splattered Riker's brains onto the filthy walls, what would have been the point?

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

 

[Thrawn]

Well, ok, so after being tortured, co-opted by the Borg, humiliated, and on the verge of death, Janeway still after all that had the strength of character and affection for Seven to overcome everything for a brief moment and save the Federation.

How is that not showing characters overcoming, and speaking to the strength of the human condition? Yes, the execution might have sucked, but I'm not sure your complaint is quite valid here.

 

[kimc]

Possibly, but I don't know what such a thing would look like. To me, the point of putting characters through physical or emotional wringers is to, conversely, show how the characters overcome, to speak to the strength of the human(oid) condition. To torture the characters and then just kill them is more Eli Roth than Star Trek.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

An excellent point but now I'm even more depressed.

 

[DGCatAniSiri]

Re: Catering to the Janeway Fans?

You know, at this point, I wonder why we keep discussing - no, bickering, really - on this, since we're clearly divided on the issue into the 'bring her back' and 'let her stay dead' camps. Can we just agree to disagree and leave these topics alone already?

I'll steal a response from someone else that I read on this board:

Have you MET the internet?

But this is a Trek board! Surely logic would be appreciated here!

 

[Gorf]

Re: Catering to the Janeway Fans?

And Gorf, I do see your point.

But, for instance, I never bought the Voyager relaunch novels before, because I didn't much like Golden and hadn't heard great things. But the death of Janeway and the new direction for the relaunch grabbed me instantly, so much so that I even went back and bought Golden's books to be ready for Full Circle.

Anecdotal evidence admittedly means dick-all when it comes to discussing sales, but I just mean it isn't a one way road. This decision may well have increased sales, despite the decision you disagree with.

Absolutely a posibility and that's fine with me. I wish them luck and I also acknowledge that Voyager is not only about Janeway, and Janeway is not for everybody. I just happen to think she's an important part of it.

But I'm not a hardcore Star Trek fan and what will happen will happen, but I still think they missed the boat years ago when they didn't publish more Voyager books after the show ended.

Again I'm not arguing whether killing Janeway was right or wrong (as some of you seem to think). I happen to think it was wrong, but I also happen to think they sidelined both her and the rest of the Voyager cast years ago.

I opened this thread to voice the opinion that there might be other stories to tell (and sales to earn) about Voyager and its captain/crew.

Sales might or might not descrease/increase, but it's a fact that Pocket Book has disregarded the Janeway/Voyager fans for years (at least in my opinion), and I'm pretty darn sure they have lost readers over the years due to that fact - plenty of readers.

Their choice, their loss, I know, and many of you might celebrate the fact, but as an editor/publisher I would still find it sad to lose readers.

One storyline shouldnt exclude another. Keep your dead Janeway and let us get a Janeway still in the Delta Quadrant. Then we might all be happy and buying books again.

 

[Semah]

Re: Catering to the Janeway Fans?

You know, at this point, I wonder why we keep discussing - no, bickering, really - on this, since we're clearly divided on the issue into the 'bring her back' and 'let her stay dead' camps. Can we just agree to disagree and leave these topics alone already?

 

[kimc]

Re: Catering to the Janeway Fans?

I happen to think it was wrong, but I also happen to think they sidelined both her and the rest of the Voyager cast years ago.

I opened this thread to voice the opinion that there might be other stories to tell (and sales to earn) about Voyager and its captain/crew.

I agree.

 

[Gorf]

Re: Catering to the Janeway Fans?

@Semah - love the drawing.