Latecomer To This: JANEWAY DIED?!?

[ronny]

My apologies for the long quote but this was a MAN talking about why he liked Janeway as a character and why he liked writing her. I know there are plenty of other male fans of Janway so to dismiss them just because they don't post here regularly is ridiculous.

Well of COURSE there are male fans of of Janeway. The person who started this whole thing here is a man. Who said there weren't male fans of Janeway? What a straw man argument.

Let's not forget our history here. That same poster came here saying he hadn't watched Voyager after season 3 because Kes was gone and only read books that took place during the first 3 seasons, which means he hasn't read a book in like 10 years, and yet totally annoyed Janeway is dead and saying over and over again Pocket needs to change it's policy on "character destruction" or he's not going to buy any more books, which he wasn't doing anyway. I'm sorry but I just think that peson is kind of rude. Which in my mind kind of blows out the myth that some people seem to be beholden to idea that Janeway fans are the nicest people on the internet. Some are and some aren't.

Kinda like the people that post on this board regularly.

And for the record, I kind of agree with the Voyager fans. As a DS9 fan I consider myself lucky I've had the best relaunch, by like a couple ordes of magnitude. If I were a Voyager fan, look what I got. Four books I personally don't care for much, my security guy goes of onto someone else's series. And then my captain is killed in yet another series. I get why Voyager fans wouldn't be thrilled with that.

I just feel coming here, being rude as some of the Voyager fans have been and saying you're not leaving until Janeway comes back is kind of harassing people who have no control over the situation.

 

[Gorf]

Janeway fans who are passionate about the licensed TrekLit might well find that they feel less-informed about other TrekLit. So it's only going to take one or too slightly negative comments for them to decide this place is not for them.

What I don't understand here is that you have to be into general TrekLit to find a place here. It makes me feel that there aren't room for Voyager fans, who aren't into all the other book series.

The tone in this thread has been less than stellar at times and to me it doesn't matter if the same goes on all over TrekLit. Some like yourself carry a civil and well spoken debate, but others...well don't.

I did feel well received at first. Actually, I was surprised, but I've also been treated in the exact opposite way and often the excuse has been something like 'don't feel special, we talk like this all over'.

I guess I just find that unacceptable. I've enjoyed the civil debates that I've had though. Thank you for those.

 

[Therin of Andor]

What I don't understand here is that you have to be into general TrekLit to find a place here.

But you don't. Since the TrekLit board covers all licensed TrekLit - short stories, novels and comics - its scope is already very broad. If you only ever read VOY novels set within the TV years of VOY (or its first three years, as Lynx does), or fanfic, which can't be discussed here for legal reasons, you're going to have minimal passion for any topic that is not "VOY novels set within the TV years of VOY".

If your outlook and knowledge is broad, you'll have more to draw upon when defending your points. If your outlook is narrow, you'll feel out of your depth if people even start to look like they might disagree.

No?

 

[Ktrek]

What I don't understand here is that you have to be into general TrekLit to find a place here. It makes me feel that there aren't room for Voyager fans, who aren't into all the other book series.

The tone in this thread has been less than stellar at times and to me it doesn't matter if the same goes on all over TrekLit. Some like yourself carry a civil and well spoken debate, but others...well don't.

I did feel well received at first. Actually, I was surprised, but I've also been treated in the exact opposite way and often the excuse has been something like 'don't feel special, we talk like this all over'.

I guess I just find that unacceptable. I've enjoyed the civil debates that I've had though. Thank you for those.

I don't think Therin said that you need to be into Trek literature in general to find a place here. It just so happens that Treklit is mostly populated by fans who read and collect most everything. Thus if a Voyager fan comes in 95% of the threads and discussions here they would feel out of their depth.

However, I think anyone wanting to discuss any of the Voyager books released would be welcomed and appreciated. Yes there will be the occasional fan who hates all things Voyager as there is everywhere on TrekBBS. Even in the Voyager area they get them. However, most of the fans here would be civil in discussing details of a novel if any of you want to start some threads.

The thing that is irksome is the attitude by some of the Voyager fans who come in here with a self-righteous attitude and act like they "better be taken seriously or else by golly"!

Almost everyone posting in these threads are just fans of the books not just the TV series. How many times have you actually seen anyone officially from Pocket Books come into these threads? Ah....let me count...that would be a big fat zero! So your posting here is not getting any kind of message to Pocket Books at all.

Yes, granted a couple of the authors have made some comments but since those were mostly ignored by all the militant Janeway fans they have not been back. It seems that the Janeway fans want their voice to be heard mostly by closing down those who disagree with them.

Mostly though, it's the attitude and spirit in which many, if not most, of the Janeway fans have come in here that is upsetting. They come in looking for a fight and then act surprised as hell when they get one. I dare say that if any of the fans who support Pocket Books move were to go into the Voyager friendly boards the same way Janeway fans have been here they would be closed down immediately and made to feel unwelcome. It's a two way street!

Kevin

 

[kimc]

Although recent happenings in these threads have certainly been tempting because it's all been so... surreal.

Now who's being dramatic?

 

[Gorf]

I dare say that if any of the fans who support Pocket Books move were to go into the Voyager friendly boards the same way Janeway fans have been here they would be closed down immediately and made to feel unwelcome.

Maybe, maybe not. I don't know. All I know is that I've tried to remain civil and not personal when I've replied to anybody here. Granted I've lost my cool a few times when provoked, and I've pointed out what I see as pointless behavior - such as the zombie janeway discussion a few pages back.

However, this was a thread where Janeway's killing in a TNG book was being discussed and that's what I came to argue against. I can't see anything wrong in that.

Nobody has trashed Kirk, Picard, Sisco, etc. Yes, the decision of the publisher has been questioned and I think that's ok. Personal attacks are not ok, but arguing a decision like killing Janeway should be ok as long as it doesn't get personal. Just like it should be ok for you to argue that you like the idea.

However, I shouldn't have to know every other female captain or lead in TrekLit in order for me not to fall into a trap when I state that I think killing Janeway, the first female LEAD Captain on a Star Trek show, was a mistake and let's face it sometimes that has been the case.

I also came to pose the suggestion that there might be a whole segment of customers out there that Pocket Books was missing out on, but for the most part that fell on deaf ears and got lost in the arguments over whether a boycutt would have any real consequences or not.

Oh well...I've found many of the posts in this thread interesting, and others have been damn annoying, but that's life and as you say normal on most boards. We can't agree with everybody and we shouldn't have to. However, we can be civil or try to - and that of course goes for both sides.

 

[kimc]

Who said there weren't male fans of Janeway? What a straw man argument.

Of course it is and I can say that because I don't recall being the one to make it. However, the attitude by some in this thread is "Janeway fans are militant (read hysterical) women who are in the minority". The entire point of the post you quoted was that no that is not the case. Janeway fans, like Trek fans, come from both genders with a wide variety of backgrounds.

And for the record, I kind of agree with the Voyager fans. As a DS9 fan I consider myself lucky I've had the best relaunch, by like a couple ordes of magnitude. If I were a Voyager fan, look what I got. Four books I personally don't care for much, my security guy goes of onto someone else's series. And then my captain is killed in yet another series. I get why Voyager fans wouldn't be thrilled with that.

Yes, you DS9 fans have been treated quite well by Pocket Books. If I sound jealous it's because I am.

I just feel coming here, being rude as some of the Voyager fans have been and saying you're not leaving until Janeway comes back is kind of harassing people who have no control over the situation.

Oh, there's been rudeness on both sides...

 

[kimc]

The article you refer to was written by Jill Sherwin and if you had read Paul Simpson's thread here in Treklit about the latest Voyager issue you would have probably noted that Jill's conversation with Bryan Fuller I thought was a standout and made a point to say so.

I did read the thread and have posted in it. I don't recall what your review was though. Please don't take it personally, I have to do a lot of thread reading and don't always remember who said what. "Search" is my friend.

Besies, my comments were directed at you personally anyway.

Granted, there are some male fans who do not like Janeway. It would be interesting to maybe do a poll here at Treklit, but I happen to be one who is a male fan and have gone on record to say so.

Yes, it would be very interesting. Would you be offended if I "stole" your idea and started one?

 

[Therin of Andor]

Now who's being dramatic?

Pardon me. No humour in any threads ever.

 

[kimc]

Now who's being dramatic?

Pardon me. No humour in any threads ever.

On the contrary, I very amused.

 

[Ktrek]

I also came to pose the suggestion that there might be a whole segment of customers out there that Pocket Books was missing out on, but for the most part that fell on deaf ears and got lost in the arguments over whether a boycutt would have any real consequences or not.

I'd like to address this Gorf. It seems to me that the rabid Janeway fans think that Voyager fans = Janeway fans and it does not. Obviously there is a large segment of Voyager fans who like Janeway but many who like Janeway are not Janeway loyalists like yourself. I consider myself a Voyager fan and I do like the character of Janeway, but I also like Tuvok, Torres, The Doctor and Seven almost as equally. If the books take any or all of these characters in another direction I will be fine with that as long as the stories remain interesting. A Voyager story does not have to have Janeway in it to be a good Voyager story. In fact the direction the post Voyager books have taken would prove that she was one of the weakest elements in those stories. And that's not to say that there are no good stories left to tell with a live Janeway. I am willing to accept whatever direction Pocket takes.

As for the boycott I do think enough illustrations have been given to show you the small percentage of the overall market that would be affected by a boycott. Even if a boycott was effective it would probably only be effective in one outcome, and that would be the abandoning of the Voyager series by Pocket Books altogether. Thus you Janeway loyalists lose and we lose too. A boycott effective enough to leave a lot of books on the shelves and in the warehouses would just tell Pocket there is no genuine interest at all in the books.

I still say that all you Janeway loyalist should get together and write Pocket Books because your problem really lies with them and not with us. I prefer to remain level headed, and open-minded about the direction the books are taking.

I myself prefer to attach my loyalty to Pocket Books and all the great things they have been doing in recent years and not to any one character. No matter how much I like said character. Killing off Janeway is not enough to thwart my confidence in Pocket Book editors ability to churn out damn good books. It may be after Full Circle and Unworthy I will come around to believe that it was indeed a bad decision but I certainly am going to withhold judgment until I have proof that it was.

You see you guys have already held court when all the evidence has not been gathered in and as far as you're concerned Pocket Books is guilty of character assassination but maybe the good of the many outweighed the good of the one!

Kevin

 

[Thrawn]

People from here, who often read all TrekLit, are not going to feel at home on a board that discusses only VOY, or at least sets out to discuss only VOY. And the only members from there who are going to want to hang out on a TrekLit board for discussing licensed TrekLit are those who read and enjoy licensed VOY TrekLit.

Janeway fans who are passionate about the licensed TrekLit might well find that they feel less-informed about other TrekLit. So it's only going to take one or too slightly negative comments for them to decide this place is not for them. That doesn't mean we are not welcoming. We probably just have less to offer them than general TrekLit fans will find here.

Exactly!

Has it escaped anyone's notice that almost none of the new people that have arrived as a result of this Janeway controversy, including the ones that I and others have made special efforts to welcome and thank for their contributions, have still not posted in almost a single other thread on here?

I mean, I know there's a place for people that only speak in one or two topics, I have nothing against that. But this board, by and large, just isn't going to talk about Voyager much (comparatively speaking), and when it does, some / many of those opinions will be negative. (Just like, for instance, some / many of the opinions on the TNG post-Nemsis books were negative until Destiny came out.) So, the average Voyager fan isn't going to find many threads they care about, and those threads will inevitably have people that disagree with them.

It's not a question of this board being welcoming, I think; there are always going to be a few people on any messageboard that react strongly to new opinions they disagree with. It's a question of there simply not being much appeal in the first place.

I think we're VERY welcoming here; I've noticed that every time any newcomer posts a thread asking for recommendations, or further information, or to clear up a few details, or anything like that that the regulars here hop to and give them all the information they need and more. And every time anyone has posted in this thread in a respectful way, I've noticed myself and several other posters making an effort to thank them for their contributions. Any time someone gives a bad review of a book, if the author that wrote that book is one that posts here, they will thank them for their criticism. Etc, etc, etc.

But I don't think it should be the regular posters' job or duty, on any messageboard, to repeatedly answer the same angry complaints over and over and over when it's abundantly clear that the people that tend to show up just to post those angry rants, no matter how they're treated, don't have much to say about the rest of the topics on the board.

 

[Ktrek]

Yes, it would be very interesting. Would you be offended if I "stole" your idea and started one?

Nope not at all Kim! Be my guest!

Kevin

 

[William Leisner]

Back to the topic of Janeway I finally picked up the latest Star Trek magazine and there was a great interview with Bryan Fuller. In it he had this to say about Janeway:

I always love Janeway because she's somebody I'd want to have a drink with. If I got the opportunity to hang out with any of the Star Trek captains, I would hang out with Janeway before any of the others. With Kirk, I'd think, "you're a lady-killer and yeah, you're good at your job and everything, but you're a little too cocky for me." And Picard, "You're fantastic and I respect you, but I don't know how to carry on a conversation with you." Sisko was too brooding for me. I love all these characters, but in terms of who would I want to go to dinner with? Captain Janeway every time. Because I feel I can kick back with her.

Kathryn Janeway: the George W. Bush of Star Trek Captains.

(And, in interest of equal time, I'll also add that he makes Sisko sound like the Richard Nixon of Trek Captains.)

 

[kimc]

Kathryn Janeway: the George W. Bush of Star Trek Captains.

I doubt there are few Americans who would like to have dinner with George W Bush at this point. At least, I was never one of them...

 

[Tachyon]

Kathryn Janeway: the George W. Bush of Star Trek Captains.

OMG...

 

[BillJ]

Voyager - After having been exposed to so many types of new anamolies, weapons and the Omega Particle would have been decommissioned. Starship designers, engineers and scientists would be waiting in line for years to get a look. More than likely the ship would have been disassembled.

That's not "logic," that's idle speculation. There was absolutely nothing in the show to indicate the ship was ailing. Nothing in the show, and nothing in the relaunch novels.

Johnny the Torch would have cut the thing apart inside a week. It's common-sense. The Intellectual community in general and Starfleet in particular will want to know how this ship stood up to the pounding it did.

Janeway - She would have either been returned to her science blues or become a starbase administrator somewhere. Too many questionable decisions to allow her back in the off-center seat.

Canon tells us she was made an admiral. If you disagree with that descision, fine, but it is what happened.

Berman promoted his pet captain in Nemesis. She did not deserve to be promoted to Admiral.

Chakotay was an idiot who never should've been in charge of anything, Maquis status nonwithstanding.

No love for Commander Cardboard?

Tuvok - He would have simply went home.

Seven and the Doctor - Neither would have ever left Earth again. Essentially being prisoners in paradise.

Based on...?

Tuvok was a family man and said he 'missed' them on quite a few occasions. I doubt another deep space assignment would be in the cards for him.

Seven was a former Borg drone and would have been physically and psychologically analyzed from now until the end-of-time. Through her Starfleet would hope to learn what make the Borg tick.

The Doctor's technology could be turned into a devastating weapon quite easily. A computer program and $.99 worth of materials and you would have an instant soldier. Which would make him a tempting target for pretty much everyone in the galaxy. Once you knew the secret massive armies wouldn't be far behind.

The journey for these characters was over. I don't envy the job that Christine Golden and Kirsten Beyer have had to do.

If your vision of things had come to pass, I'm sure they would, but that's not what happened, and I'm going to assume Beyer is sticking with canon. The hard part about any of these books is the fragmentation of the crew and trying to please fans who think every VOY character needs to be in every VOY novel.

There are serious bumps in the road for stories future telling anything more than them sitting around a table and reminiscing. I'll pick up Full Circle to see if Kirsten Beyer has anything up her sleeve. Roads that I may not see, but I'm not sure I'll be able to get over my skepticism the more I think about it.

 

[teya]

^^^ And ever heard the story of how the TOS was saved?
*Sigh* we just seem to move in endless circles. Leave Brit alone. Everytime we hear comments about Janeway staying dead we feel obliged to jump in and respond and on it goes, around and around.

Um, yeah. I did. I participated in the letter-writing.

I don't recall berating the producers, the network, other fans over the whole thing.

And since this is the first time I've responded to Brit, how exactly am I making her life miserable? By stating my opinion? If she (or you) has a problem with that, perhaps you shouldn't be on a BBS. I was not rude, I didn't flame. No need for the overreaction.

 

[Brit]

And since this is the first time I've responded to Brit, how exactly am I making her life miserable? By stating my opinion? If she (or you) has a problem with that, perhaps you shouldn't be on a BBS. I was not rude, I didn't flame. No need for the overreaction.

Oh darn, you made my life miserable and I didn't even notice. I had to go back several pages lol.

Nope not going anywhere you are all stuck with me.

Brit

 

[teya]

And since this is the first time I've responded to Brit, how exactly am I making her life miserable? By stating my opinion? If she (or you) has a problem with that, perhaps you shouldn't be on a BBS. I was not rude, I didn't flame. No need for the overreaction.

Oh darn, you made my life miserable and I didn't even notice. I had to go back several pages lol.

Nope not going anywhere you are all stuck with me.

Brit

And how exactly did you get from my post that I was telling you to leave?

Your bud is telling me I'm not supposed to disagree with you--that I have to "leave you alone."

Sorry, those of us who disagree with you have just as much right to express our opinion as you do. If you want total agreement, you can find it at VAMB.