Latecomer To This: JANEWAY DIED?!?

[teya]

Teya, if you want to cause trouble. Don't. We are not leaving no matter how much you try to force us out and put us in our place, we have a place right here as equal Trek fans and we will use it.

And where have I said that I want to "force you out and put you in your place"? Really, this is overreaction.

I have simply pointed out that the insistence that yours is the One True and Only Voyager Fandom and that you all post for all female Voyager fans is simply not true, and could be turning off more folks rather than gathering support.

You can pay attention or not, as you choose.

 

[CoriM]

Why did you respond with snark? I will never understand why people do that here, it's not making your point any stronger.

Why is it a "snark"? It's how I really feel. What you would like to see would, in effect, render all future books toothless for me.

I added the devil symbol to indicate I was being a little devilish in saying so. It's a fun symbol. If we aren't allowed to have a little fun on this board, and must always be deadly serious, why do we have all those emoticons? Every post would have to end with .

Seeing Janeway alive would render all the books toothless for you? Wow she has a lot of power, because that's all I've asked for.

It's not funny if it's rude and designed to diminish the other person rather to argue a point. So sharpen your debating skills and give me a run for my money. Because making fun of me simply says I've hit the mark.

 

[Gorf]

...but I really do not understand why the death of a fictional character has lead to a few thousand pretty heated posts.

You don't have to understand, you just have to accept that this does indeed matter to us, and as long as the other side doesn't stop arguing, neither will we. That's not a threat, that's just a fact of life. Just like two opposing parties in politics will never stop arguing either.

However, at least it winds down at times. We'll never agree, but maybe we can learn to accept and respect each other and each other's opinions.

 

[joyofvgr]

I started reading this discussion having absolutely no interest in the Voyager relaunch. I'd given up on it because I didn't like Golden's writing. And I'd pretty much stopped reading Trek lit in general.

I have changed my mind--thanks to the overreaction of the Janeway "militants." I figure anything that gets people this riled up has to be checked out.

I'll be buying *more* Trek books, including "Full Circle," thanks to you guys.

Funny, my reaction and involvement here is the complete opposite. I was looking forward to "Full Circle" and was very much interested in the Relaunch until I heard Janeway's death might be permanent. Now I will just wait and see. I didn't read the relaunch books until years after they were released, so there's no need for me to rush to buy Breyer's books either.

I just wonder what your reaction would have been if they killed off Seven instead.

I'd read it.

As I have said before, death fic does not bother me. If anything, I like to see how realistically authors deal with grief and loss.

Besides, there's always fanfic for stories set during a character's lifetime. And other novels.

I'm surprised by your response. You take such offense to the Die Seven Die fan fic contests. I guess that's because you don't like the J/Cness of it all, but I've read a few of those stories, by mistake. I didn't know what they were at first (LOL). I must say that some of them were in good taste and very well done and Seven's death added to the story, in ways I wouldn't have imagined. But I really don't like character death, not even if it means a J/C ending.

 

[MilitantJaneway]

Dimesdan- And we do and for most part at least on my end I have not been shouting or stomping as you put it. It irritated me though, that you would just make that assumption because we are here talking about something that is important to us.

I admit, I used a bad turn of phrase, but I really do not understand why the death of a fictional character has lead to a few thousand pretty heated posts. As I have said before, it just seems like a massive non argument to me.

Because we are fans of Janeway and Voyager and we do feel a loss at her death. After the series ended we got only a handful of books, four of them by someone who really did not seem to spend a heck of alot of time researching the characters. (And I am not being rude to CG -so lets not go down that road) Then when we finally get an author who writes Voyager really really well, we find out that-sorry you get Voyager sans the main character. So I am a little ticked off at that wasted potential.

And honestly to me it looks like the editors decided that they needed something that would jump start interest in the books and the way they went about that was by killing of the character they saw as most expendable but also important enough that it would generate interest. They couldn't knock of Sisko or Kirk because it would be a matter of been there done that, with Archer it would be meh..who cares. It would never fly with Picard because I could just see the outcry on that. That left only Janeway and so we her fans ended up with the raw deal.
So that's why her death led to a few thousand posts.

 

[CoriM]

Teya, if you want to cause trouble. Don't. We are not leaving no matter how much you try to force us out and put us in our place, we have a place right here as equal Trek fans and we will use it.

And where have I said that I want to "force you out and put you in your place"? Really, this is overreaction.

I have simply pointed out that the insistence that yours is the One True and Only Voyager Fandom and that you all post for all female Voyager fans is simply not true, and could be turning off more folks rather than gathering support.

You can pay attention or not, as you choose.

You've tried all day to convince people that no one is listening to us. But obviously you are and the fact that you trying to get us to go away says you're not confident. Silence is confidence. I know I'm not in the majority so I post, if you're sure you are, then there's no reason to debate me, is there?

Trying to save me and others from ourselves if we aren't right is very kind of you, but not your job

 

[teya]

Funny, my reaction and involvement here is the complete opposite. I was looking forward to "Full Circle" and was very much interested in the Relaunch until I heard Janeway's death might be permanent. Now I will just wait and see. I didn't read the relaunch books until years after they were released, so there's no need for me to rush to buy Breyer's books either.

I just wonder what your reaction would have been if they killed off Seven instead.

I'd read it.

As I have said before, death fic does not bother me. If anything, I like to see how realistically authors deal with grief and loss.

Besides, there's always fanfic for stories set during a character's lifetime. And other novels.

I'm surprised by your response. You take such offense to the Die Seven Die fan fic contests. I guess that's because you don't like the J/Cness of it all, but I've read a few of those stories, by mistake. I didn't know what they were at first (LOL). I must say that some of them were in good taste and very well done and Seven's death added to the story, in ways I wouldn't have imagined. But I really don't like character death, not even if it means a J/C ending.

I probably was turned off by her self-destructing nanoprobes that made her head explode and such things. When a gruesome death is played for laughs or for spite, I'm turned off.

 

[teya]

Teya, if you want to cause trouble. Don't. We are not leaving no matter how much you try to force us out and put us in our place, we have a place right here as equal Trek fans and we will use it.

And where have I said that I want to "force you out and put you in your place"? Really, this is overreaction.

I have simply pointed out that the insistence that yours is the One True and Only Voyager Fandom and that you all post for all female Voyager fans is simply not true, and could be turning off more folks rather than gathering support.

You can pay attention or not, as you choose.

You've tried all day to convince people that no one is listening to us. But obviously you are and the fact that you trying to get us to go away says you're not confident.

Where have I said this? Please do point it out. Quote it.

Bcause I've said nothing of the sort.

And repeating it over and over without proof doesn't make it true.

 

[DimesDan]

You don't have to understand, you just have to accept that this does indeed matter to us, and as long as the other side doesn't stop arguing, neither will we. That's not a threat, that's just a fact of life. Just like two opposing parties in politics will never stop arguing either.

For me to accept why you are so worked up over the death of Janeway I need to understand why certain people feel this way. Now unless you don't actually have a reason as apart from how physics works and similar things, it's not a fact of life and I will not just accept that.

 

[MilitantJaneway]

For me to accept why you are so worked up over the death of Janeway I need to understand why certain people feel this way. Now unless you don't actually have a reason as apart from how physics works and similar things, it's not a fact of life and I will not just accept that.

read back a few posts and I did give you a reason why I felt the way I did

 

[Gorf]

For me to accept why you are so worked up over the death of Janeway I need to understand why certain people feel this way.

But you'll never understand for the simply reason that we just don't agree on this very issue. That shouldn't mean that you can't respect or accept that we do - as long of course as it doesn't affect you adversely, which it shouldn't since you can always ignore us.

Now unless you don't actually have a reason as apart from how physics works and similar things, it's not a fact of life and I will not just accept that.

I'm not sure what you want me to prove here. I was talking about the fact that sometimes people who disagree will continue to disagree and argue until one side simply stops. Hence my reference to politics.

 

[leola]

the FUCK?

<snip>

what the hell are you on?

Go ahead and start insulting me now, but this is just one example of why I felt unwelcome on this board. I lurked before posting, but saw lots of interesting potential threads reduced to swearing and insults. I'm new, but that's not funny. IMHO, there are better, more civil ways to disagree.

I also felt defensive when I found derogatory comments to be insulting and they are let slide, because they are tolerated (welcomed? encouraged?) on many threads on this board. I'm a TNG fan and a VOY fan, and my impressions are that VOY and ENT are seen as less-worthy Trek (the more pot shots, the better), Seven is frequently objectified (the caption contest with Seven, Harry and B'Elanna is a series of threesome jokes) and Janeway is any number of negative female stereotypes, which are said as though they were fact. There seemed to me to be some unwritten acceptance for that kind of thinking, and it didn't seem worth it to bring it up because I'm not interested in having debates about shallowness, sexism, whatever it would be perceived as when bandied about, with extra insults and namecalling thrown in.

I don't come to the trekbbs for anything other than to read and talk Trek. I hope I'm civil and respectful, even if I disagree; lots aren't. The tone was not welcoming to me as someone who wasn't fixated on Seven's breasts, whether or not Janeway was a bitch, or whether VOY/ENT were a total waste of time. I've participated in several interesting convos, don't bother reading some posters at all anymore, and ignore parts of others posts. Nobody cares whether I stick around or not, and I know that, but I thought I'd share my experience as an alternate viewpoint to those who feel this is welcoming board to newbies. I'm fully expecting someone to reply with, "Well then leave the board if you hate it so much" or some other helpful point.

Peace.

 

[Lynx]

Dimesdan- And we do and for most part at least on my end I have not been shouting or stomping as you put it. It irritated me though, that you would just make that assumption because we are here talking about something that is important to us.

I admit, I used a bad turn of phrase, but I really do not understand why the death of a fictional character has lead to a few thousand pretty heated posts. As I have said before, it just seems like a massive non argument to me.

Because we are fans of Janeway and Voyager and we do feel a loss at her death. After the series ended we got only a handful of books, four of them by someone who really did not seem to spend a heck of alot of time researching the characters. (And I am not being rude to CG -so lets not go down that road) Then when we finally get an author who writes Voyager really really well, we find out that-sorry you get Voyager sans the main character. So I am a little ticked off at that wasted potential.

And honestly to me it looks like the editors decided that they needed something that would jump start interest in the books and the way they went about that was by killing of the character they saw as most expendable but also important enough that it would generate interest. They couldn't knock of Sisko or Kirk because it would be a matter of been there done that, with Archer it would be meh..who cares. It would never fly with Picard because I could just see the outcry on that. That left only Janeway and so we her fans ended up with the raw deal.
So that's why her death led to a few thousand posts.

Here I agree. I happen to like Janeway myself, one of Star Trek's best characters as I see it, and I can truly understand the reaction from the ardent Janeway fans in this matter. For me it's also something of a repeat of the "Kes case", a beloved character is annihilated for no acceptable reason at all and then we have to stand the pathetic explanations from those in charge why they did it and at the same time being told that "this is the way we have done it, accept it or p*** off." That can make anyone go nuts.

And I can't help thinking that it would have been better if they had tried to attract all those Janeway fans and Voyager fans out there who don't read or buys the books by coming up with good stories about Janeway and the other characters as well instead of alienating the fans of Janeway who might have been fans of the books by killing her off.

 

[DimesDan]

For me to accept why you are so worked up over the death of Janeway I need to understand why certain people feel this way.

But you'll never understand for the simply reason that we just don't agree on this very issue. That shouldn't mean that you can't respect or accept that we do - as long of course as it doesn't affect you adversely, which it shouldn't since you can always ignore us.

Actually I'm indifferent on the matter, and instead of trying to think you know what I may or may not understand, just tell me your reasoning, either in this thread or in PM, I'm easy, but if I can actually understand your reasoning you might be surprised!

 

[Lynx]

I want her back to make the Trek fandom a more inclusive place again, to keep alive the equality and tolerance of the sexes that seems to be a thing of the past. For me, she's now a symbol of being allowed to exist as a Trek fan today

the FUCK?!

you need a woman captain series lead to justify being a fan?!

you think you're not allowed to be a fan because Janeway's DEAD?!

WHA?!

never mind all those other human AND ALIEN, female characters, like, y'know B'Elanna, Leader Wol, Nan Bacco, Esperanza Pienerio, Rana Desai, Choudury, Danni Elfiki, Ezri Dax, Elizabeth Shelby, Carol Abramowitz, Elizabeth Lense, Robin Lefler, P8 Blue, Sonya Gomez, T'Prynn, Prynn Tenmei, Aillia Laevena, Melora Pazlar, Kat Mueller, Erika Hernandez and so forth that exist, the fact that Janeway's dead makes you feel excluded?

what the hell are you on?

I find B'Elanna Torres and Shelby good characters. I could add Ro Laren as well.

But the others?

Comparing Janeway with them is like comparing Michael Jordan with some average college league players.

 

[captcalhoun]

the FUCK?

<snip>

what the hell are you on?

Go ahead and start insulting me now, but this is just one example of why I felt unwelcome on this board. I lurked before posting, but saw lots of interesting potential threads reduced to swearing and insults. I'm new, but that's not funny. IMHO, there are better, more civil ways to disagree.

I also felt defensive when I found derogatory comments to be insulting and they are let slide, because they are tolerated (welcomed? encouraged?) on many threads on this board. I'm a TNG fan and a VOY fan, and my impressions are that VOY and ENT are seen as less-worthy Trek (the more pot shots, the better), Seven is frequently objectified (the caption contest with Seven, Harry and B'Elanna is a series of threesome jokes) and Janeway is any number of negative female stereotypes, which are said as though they were fact. There seemed to me to be some unwritten acceptance for that kind of thinking, and it didn't seem worth it to bring it up because I'm not interested in having debates about shallowness, sexism, whatever it would be perceived as when bandied about, with extra insults and namecalling thrown in.

I don't come to the trekbbs for anything other than to read and talk Trek. I hope I'm civil and respectful, even if I disagree; lots aren't. The tone was not welcoming to me as someone who wasn't fixated on Seven's breasts, whether or not Janeway was a bitch, or whether VOY/ENT were a total waste of time. I've participated in several interesting convos, don't bother reading some posters at all anymore, and ignore parts of others posts. Nobody cares whether I stick around or not, and I know that, but I thought I'd share my experience as an alternate viewpoint to those who feel this is welcoming board to newbies. I'm fully expecting someone to reply with, "Well then leave the board if you hate it so much" or some other helpful point.

Peace.

i'm not insulting anyone I'm am completely flabbergasted as to why anyone would equate having a female captain as a series lead means they are 'included' and 'allowed' to be a Trek fan. it just seems such a completely surreal thing to say. Janeway has got nothing to do with it specifically. i'm not insulting anyone. i am asking why does a person need a female captain or female lead character to feel 'included'? there are plenty of female characters, captains and not. and FYI, leola, that post was not directed at you in any way shape or form.

and that's one of the reasons these threads are driving me up the wall. someone makes a comment, someone else asks what they mean and then a third or fourth person leaps on the second and starts slinging around baseless accusations and insulting comments and making Everest out of a dimple.

 

[Gorf]

Actually I'm indifferent on the matter, and instead of trying to think you know what I may or may not understand, just tell me your reasoning, either in this thread or in PM, I'm easy, but if I can actually understand your reasoning you might be surprised!

Fine, I give up. I've done plenty of that in this thread and I'm not likely to come up with anything better that will cover all of that and make you understand so I'll just leave that argument with you and say whatever.

 

[Dayton Ward]

For me it's also something of a repeat of the "Kes case", a beloved character is annihilated for no acceptable reason at all and then we have to stand the pathetic explanations from those in charge why they did it and at the same time being told that "this is the way we have done it, accept it or p*** off." That can make anyone go nuts.

Please provide a link to any post, anywhere, where anyone who was responsible for this decision or who participated in its execution said anything of the sort. Indeed, link to a post where anyone affiliated with Pocket Books in even the most fleeting capacity said it.

 

[joyofvgr]

I'd read it.

As I have said before, death fic does not bother me. If anything, I like to see how realistically authors deal with grief and loss.

Besides, there's always fanfic for stories set during a character's lifetime. And other novels.

I'm surprised by your response. You take such offense to the Die Seven Die fan fic contests. I guess that's because you don't like the J/Cness of it all, but I've read a few of those stories, by mistake. I didn't know what they were at first (LOL). I must say that some of them were in good taste and very well done and Seven's death added to the story, in ways I wouldn't have imagined. But I really don't like character death, not even if it means a J/C ending.

I probably was turned off by her self-destructing nanoprobes that made her head explode and such things. When a gruesome death is played for laughs or for spite, I'm turned off.

Oh. Well I've never read anything like that in a fic and hopefully I never will. But if you can be turned of to something, why can't we?

And you're right there are plenty of alternatives. So if I'm not going to get what I want from pocket books, I'll go someplace else. It's that simple. I think that there is a big market opportunity that they are wasting here. If there are so many of us who have come forward to express this, there must be more of us out there as well.

I'm also sure that many think that she should stay dead. But would bringing her back really turn those people off to Trek to the extent that we will be turned off if she stays dead? I'm actually asking, as I don't know the answer to this.

 

[leola]

captcalhoun wrote "and that's one of the reasons these threads are driving me up the wall. someone makes a comment, someone else asks what they mean and then a third or fourth person leaps on the second and starts slinging around baseless accusations and insulting comments and making Everest out of a dimple."

Nowhere did I say your comments were directed at me. This is a public board, however, so all comments do affect the general tone when others read the thread. That kind of response makes me feel like I don't want to participate, to save my energy for elsewhere, because of the unwelcoming tone of that reply. That was my point, in relation to the earlier posts about being a welcoming board to newbies.

(sorry, screwed up the quote thing again.)