Last Full Measure Discussion and Review (MAJOR SPOILERS!)

[Madea]

Re: Last Full Measure Discussion and Review (MAJOR SPOILERS!

Andy Mangels said:

Piper said:
If this was such a good idea I would love to hear from the other authors and editors that frequent this board and know how they think.

You want thoughts?

Well, for the record, both Mike and I agree that TATV was an abomination and a storytelling nightmare. A better script could have been pounded out by three syphlitic monkeys with typewriters, and I've overheard conversations by crackheads on the street that made more sense.

We were both elated to get a chance to show how some of the obviously sloppy storytelling could be fixed with our framing sequence. When not only the actors and fans, but even the producers who worked on it have discussed that the last episode was a mistake and should have been done better... we're happy to start the road to better.

And BTW, your comments about Margaret verge on personal attacks. Margaret cares about Star Trek incredibly deeply, as do all the Trek editors, and we as fans should be grateful to have people THAT invested in the properties in control. Had Berman and Braga cared as much as Margaret, Marco, and Keith care about the stories and characters -- instead of as much as B&B cared about the "franchise" and $$$ -- we might have had great Trek in Enterprise all of the time instead of some of it.

Piper - you're free to disagree with the CONCEPT of Trip not being dead, but until you've read it, you cannot make ANY coherent comment about what it means to the book. And understanding FULLY what the framing sequence actually means would require knowing what is coming in the future for ENT stories.

All that said, as many others have pointed out, if you don't like the framing sequence, don't read it. While there are thematic elements -- and a deeper understanding of some story elements -- to be had by reading the framing sequence, the bulk of the book can stand apart from the framing sequence just fine.

Ok ok. Andy, you're a great diplomat. I begrudgingly withdrawl my complaints about the book and the editor, because if you vouch for the editors really caring about the franchise as much as you say they do, then my concerns are quited a bit.

My feelings go beyond the books but to all of Star Trek. I got this idea in my head that people would start trying to rewrite Trek history because they dont like this or that. I don't care one way or the other if Tucker lives again or not, I do care about making changes when it doesn't seem to make sense to do so.

So to Ms Clark, I appologize. To the others in this thread I meant every word of it.

 

[Captain59]

Re: Last Full Measure Discussion and Review (MAJOR SPOILERS!

I think the writers and editors would have left Trip dead if, a) his death had meaning and wasn't so horribly written, and b) if a majority of Enterprise die-hards didn't care. The fact that Trip's death was just horrible for reasons mentioned and also that many Enterprise fans truly disliked how it was handled created the mindset of the writers and editors that said, "hey, we need to fix this." (I don't mean to speak for them, and please correct me if I'm wrong.) As Sam Beckett would say, it was a wrong that needed to be made right. What I respect is that they didn't undo anything in TATV...as much as I wouldn't have minded it. One of the fan fiction TATV fixes I wrote does something similar...it adds scenes to TATV that shows Trip didn't die. I have yet to post it but maybe I should. But the way M&M made Trip NOT.DEAD. was brilliant.

Obviously, there are many things to be told...buring questions like why was Trip pronounced dead? Who knew about it? When was it decided that Trip was going to be pronounced dead? Was he truly thought to be dead, and then "came back", so to speak? (That is part of the fix in my story.) Was his surgeries done to alter his appearance to hide him? Did T'Pol know he was NOT.DEAD and did they continue their relationhip? (That's possible, since we know of nothing about T'Pol after TATV.) Specifically how involved was Trip with Marvick's family, knowing he helped raise his grandmother? Did Trip want to be known as dead? Was it his decision? Will things be explained that can excuse the ridiculous lack-of-mourning behavior at the end of TATV among the crew of Enterprise? (That's also something my story takes care of.)

Perhaps one book will deal with issues within TATV...possibly events that happened between Trip being hurled into the imaging chamber and The Speech. Maybe we'll see where he goes and what he does. I would even like to see a book that is only about him and in his new life. Is he completely alone, or does someone go with him, like T'Pol? Who knows, maybe Crewman Cutler is "assigned" to go with him? I am equally longing for stories that take place right after "Terra Prime."

Wow...there are so many good stories to be told, we could already have Enterprise books going forward for the next ten years! I'm looking forward to ALL of it!

 

[Dayton Ward]

Re: Last Full Measure Discussion and Review (MAJOR SPOILERS!

Piper said:
So to Ms Clark, I appologize. To the others in this thread I meant every word of it.

So did we, dear. So did we.

 

[pookha]

Re: Last Full Measure Discussion and Review (MAJOR SPOILERS!

well could the discussion get to the main part of the story.

there was a question asked before that may have been lost within the noise..

Captain59 said:


What I want to know is if there is any significance with Travis's letters to his mom. The last page of the main story is his second letter. Should we just take them at face value, or is there a hidden agenda here?

 

[Christopher]

Re: Last Full Measure Discussion and Review (MAJOR SPOILERS!

Piper said:
Ok, I knew the price of the book but rounded it, sorry for being as you call lazy. Seems to me I'm as lazy as the work you did for your last Titan novel. And second I never once insulted anyone like I've been here tonight...

Thank you, that was entertaining. I guess the truth will out after all, won't it? That diminishing flapping sound you hear is the last vestige of your credibility flying out the window.

(Of course I'm not offended. You've already established that you don't actually read the books you attack.)

Something tells me this thread isn't gonna stay unlocked much longer...

 

[JWolf]

Re: Last Full Measure Discussion and Review (MAJOR SPOILERS!

Piper said:

Zane Gray said:
Yeah, okay you lost me there. Knowing all about what's in a book just by reading the spoilers on a messageboard is a lot like knowing all about what's going on with the war in Iraq, or in politics, or science by watching The O'Reilly Factor, Hardball, The Daily Show or The Colbert Report. You should never get the facts, upon which you base your own opinions, pre-digested.

Fact One: The book entitled Last Full Measure has a framing sequence outside of the main body of the story.

Fact 2: This framing sequence involves the character of Trip Tucker.

Fact 3: Margret Clark decides to make it her own personal crusade to right the wrongs of Rick Berman and Brannon Braga by making choices "from her heart" and saving Trip Tucker.

Already there are 3 main facts that I got just from reading the posts here. So yeah, I can make an opinion about how stupid it was to worry about the Trip Tucker thing without spending 10 bucks of my hard earned money.

Where do you live that a $7.99 book costs $10?

You are making opinions based on what others have said. Your opinions are based on their opinions, not on the book itself. If you'd read the book, then your opinions would be able to be base don the book. I have the book, but have not yet read it as I have it in my list of books to read. But I will not make an opinion on the plot except to say that I am looking forward to reading it. The bits with Trip I cannot and will not comment on due to not having read it. But you seem to feel that it is OK to form strong opinions about a book you have never read.

 

[JWolf]

Re: Last Full Measure Discussion and Review (MAJOR SPOILERS!

Piper said:

Zane Gray said:
And again (Fact!), everything you've just described amounts to next to nothing in the context of the complete book, which you have (Fact!) already entirely prejudged based on little more than BBS discussion.

The fact that they had to take the times to explain away the Trip Tucker thing is enough for me not to buy it. Why not have framing sequences where Data and Jadzia Dax arent't dead but really somewhere on Risa playing poker? I know, why not write one where Tora Ziyal is really in hiding because she's the queen of all Bajor? Hell, why not use the novels to explain away all the unwanted deaths we've ever had in Trek's 40 years of existance? Kia Winn, why she's not dead, she was really an agent for the Obsidian Order and Joe Carey of Voyager, he wasn't killed torwards the end of the mission because that wasn't the real Joe Carey, that was a clone sent by the Pakleds to steal the Intrepid class schematics.

Damn! You just stole all of my plot ideas I wanted to use for the next Strange New Worlds contest.

 

[Dayton Ward]

Re: Last Full Measure Discussion and Review (MAJOR SPOILERS!

pookha said:
well could the discussion get to the main part of the story.

Captain59 said:


What I want to know is if there is any significance with Travis's letters to his mom. The last page of the main story is his second letter. Should we just take them at face value, or is there a hidden agenda here?

Take something Andy and Mike wrote at face value?

C'monnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn.

 

[Steve Roby]

Re: Last Full Measure Discussion and Review (MAJOR SPOILERS!

I wrote a long paragraph response to Piper, but the hell with it. Instead, I'll be concise:

Good fucking grief.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

Re: Last Full Measure Discussion and Review (MAJOR SPOILERS!

Alright, alright. Enough is enough. You guys caught me with my pants down because I haven't read this book. This thread is officially over. Warnings will follow once I sort out this whole mess.

Lock number...six, I think? Sheesh...



Okay, this is how it goes:

Piper said:

Dayton Ward said:

Piper said:
I find all this Tucker talk silly. No matter how you cut it, the character is dead one way or the other. The guy will never be the same again and has changed and the fact that they had to add a framing sequence to satisy the whims of a couple of people shows me that the editor on this project had too much time on her hands.

I was going to get the book but now I won't because I've already lost respect for it.

That's okay, because the legions of Tuckerites who swore never to buy a Trek novel Ever Again So Long As They All Shall Live(tm) if Tucker stayed dead are at this instant lining up to buy multiple copies of this and any other Trek novel.

I mean, that's what I gathered from all that hooplah late last year.

So, it all balances out.

And this is why I love fandom.

Are there really Legions of Tuckerites out there? I mean really, the show itself was good in my opinion and I watched it, but are there really that many Tuckerites out there or just or just a small few, one of wich happens to be the editor in charge. Looks to me like she used her position to satisy her own whims and that of a couple of others.

One warning for trolling.

William Leisner said:

Piper said:
The fact that they had to take the times to explain away the Trip Tucker thing is enough for me not to buy it.

Piper, sweetheart? Come here a second.

Closer.

Listen, let me tell you something:

You're an ignorant ninny.

See, if you knew the difference between a book and an internet post, you'd understand that "the Trip Tucker thing" was not, in fact, explained away. The book, in essence, only confuses the question.

Unfortunately, again, you are an ignorant ninny.

(In my opinion, which we're all entitled to.)

One warning for flaming.

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