How do you thus explain them morphing into purple and lt.gray California raisins?
Klingons: Different appearances, artificial cranial deformation/head binding
- Thread starter INACTIVERedDwarf
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Those wacky Klingons are at it again. I can see why Worf would say, "We do not discuss it with outsiders."
He should be embarrassed that his people can't sustain a decent appearance.It may or may not be silly for fans to make such a demand, but I think it is a fun discussion anyway.
I didn't need an in-universe explanation. I understand the limitations of the TOS budget and the make-up of that era. Nevertheless, since an in-universe explanation was given, I have to say that the augment virus explanation was very a clever idea.
I know it is subjective, but the nuTrek and DSC Klingons look worse than the TNG, or TOS for that matter, Klingons. They should have just stuck with the TNG look.
That was the stupiest retcon in all of trek and I hope they retcon it right back out as it made no freaking sense
Probably could save a lot of trouble of just retconning TOS as not anything more than Federation Film recreation
Probably could save a lot of trouble of just retconning TOS as not anything more than Federation Film recreation
It would have made Kirk and crew as well as the whole Fedration look less ignorant and downright stupid.
This. I never thought a design choice would've warranted a canon in-universe explanation, but it never stopped me from theorycrafting. Making up theories is simply fun, in no small part because it lets one think within the narrative.It may or may not be silly for fans to make such a demand, but I think it is a fun discussion anyway.
Exactly.
If I was a writer for DIscovery, this is what I would do.
Late in the series, have some gathering of all Klingon houses. Also make note that there are lower "classes' of Klingons that are not part of these houses. Within this group, we see Klingons with all looks from all Trek series, including ENT augments.
We then have a large group that were altered using the methods that transformed Voq, and through whatever political issues, they become the men and women who become the unified military, women who socialize and marry them also undergo the procedures, and are sworn to be the only Klingons that are allowed to leave their territory to be seen by others. The altered ones like Voq, if they have babies, they are Klingon.
History would say that the dominant sect is what interacts outside of the empire. Eventually, they go on this mass program of shutting down this hybrid military, altering people back to looking like Klingons, and so forth
This is the drift in my head. Its complex, but it can reconcile everything and all the different looks.
Honestly, I made peace with the different looks just as part of Hollywood production. Enterprise decided to re open that can of worms and give a canon reason (augment virus). On the surface that seemed great and we would see them in Discovery, well their Klingons threw that on its head.
Late in the series, have some gathering of all Klingon houses. Also make note that there are lower "classes' of Klingons that are not part of these houses. Within this group, we see Klingons with all looks from all Trek series, including ENT augments.
We then have a large group that were altered using the methods that transformed Voq, and through whatever political issues, they become the men and women who become the unified military, women who socialize and marry them also undergo the procedures, and are sworn to be the only Klingons that are allowed to leave their territory to be seen by others. The altered ones like Voq, if they have babies, they are Klingon.
History would say that the dominant sect is what interacts outside of the empire. Eventually, they go on this mass program of shutting down this hybrid military, altering people back to looking like Klingons, and so forth
This is the drift in my head. Its complex, but it can reconcile everything and all the different looks.
Honestly, I made peace with the different looks just as part of Hollywood production. Enterprise decided to re open that can of worms and give a canon reason (augment virus). On the surface that seemed great and we would see them in Discovery, well their Klingons threw that on its head.
Question:
In the season finale, Ash Tyler says:
"This chimney's in the High Council chamber. The First City. All hybrid areas, that place."
What did he mean?
I'm sure I'm not the only one who noticed this.
I sometimes wonder if some of the production crew read things like TrekBBS to gauge the mood of the audience, because the finale incorporated a lot of things fans have been wanting for some time, such as one of the first ever establishing shots of the Discovery just flying, clearly. Could this be a reference to Klingons of the First City being more cosmopolitan and hybrid, a step toward integrating all different portrayals of the Klingons?
I just think of Trek as a retelling from memory by different people aged circa 100.
In brushstrokes there's a general consistency but sometimes in memory there arises inconsistencies in the appearance of species and in the detail of events.
In brushstrokes there's a general consistency but sometimes in memory there arises inconsistencies in the appearance of species and in the detail of events.
I haven't read a single post in this thread. Well, except for a partial read of the first one, and a quick scroll through of the first "page".
I can't believe we're still talking about this shit. But, then again, I must take into account where I'm at. I am reminded now of walking through the HEB parking lot today with my groceries. The birds scurry about picking up scraps. How long ago was it that their ancestors ruled and the puny ass mammals walked about their feet? Now look at them. They're picking up shit off the parking lot while we cruse by in our SUVs.
Things change. And sometimes not for the better, depending on who you are.
That said, the new Klingons suck.
I can't believe we're still talking about this shit. But, then again, I must take into account where I'm at. I am reminded now of walking through the HEB parking lot today with my groceries. The birds scurry about picking up scraps. How long ago was it that their ancestors ruled and the puny ass mammals walked about their feet? Now look at them. They're picking up shit off the parking lot while we cruse by in our SUVs.
Things change. And sometimes not for the better, depending on who you are.
That said, the new Klingons suck.
I don't have any issue with Trek having visual retcons per se. The problem is, Trek has not just changed the depiction.
1. DS9 decided first, in Trials and Tribble-ations - to have Worf not change into looking like a TOS Klingon when he went back in time (which would have been the better solution) but to have him look the same and a little joke about it.
2. Enterprise decided to explain the difference between smoothies and the ridged Klingons canonically with the augment virus.
3. There are numerous little aspects of canon which show that Klingons aren't just depicted with hair, but they have hair. Examples are the legend of the Sword of Kahess, and Worf's mother talking about how he grew his hair longer after not seeing him for some time.
The DIS choice in terms of Klingon redesign was, frankly, stupid as hell. That said, my ideal solution would be, much like all of the terrible aspects of this past season, if it is never remarked upon again, and next season we just start seeing more "normal" Klingons.
1. DS9 decided first, in Trials and Tribble-ations - to have Worf not change into looking like a TOS Klingon when he went back in time (which would have been the better solution) but to have him look the same and a little joke about it.
2. Enterprise decided to explain the difference between smoothies and the ridged Klingons canonically with the augment virus.
3. There are numerous little aspects of canon which show that Klingons aren't just depicted with hair, but they have hair. Examples are the legend of the Sword of Kahess, and Worf's mother talking about how he grew his hair longer after not seeing him for some time.
The DIS choice in terms of Klingon redesign was, frankly, stupid as hell. That said, my ideal solution would be, much like all of the terrible aspects of this past season, if it is never remarked upon again, and next season we just start seeing more "normal" Klingons.
No apology necessary, but I think we're still talking past each other here, somehow. Bottom line, when you're dealing with a point of confusion within a fictional reality, there is a difference between an in-universe and an out-of-universe explanation for whatever that confusion is.
For example: who wrote the Sherlock Holmes stories: John Watson, or Arthur Conan Doyle? Within the stories, Watson did it. In real life, Conan Doyle did it. If you're looking to explain something puzzling within one of those stories, then an explanation that works by way of explaining Watson's motivations or mistakes is qualitatively different from one that forces you to acknowledge the existence of Conan Doyle. For me personally, and for a lot of people, an explanation that works in-story is inherently more satisfying than one that only works by acknowledging the story as a fictional construct, because it doesn't interfere with the "willing suspension of disbelief." Perhaps for you, the experience really doesn't feel any different... but if so, you're something of an outlier.
It's why, when DC Comics restarted its universe back in 1985, they devoted an entire year to a highly publicized 12-issue mini-series (Crisis on Infinite Earths) telling the story of why and how the universe was restarting, rather than just printing an editorial saying "Hey, complete reboot next month, folks! New number ones all around. Suck it up." It's why, when you look up something about Trek on the Memory Alpha wiki, articles that actually talk about actors, writers, etc. are carefully flagged with the label "production point of view" to set them apart from articles that describe the fictional universe in its own terms. It's why, in real life, if we run up against an unexplained phenomenon, a scientific explanation for it that works within the laws of nature is inherently more satisfying than one that posits an explanation originating outside the universe by saying "the gods did it."
It's all about diegesis, as distinguished from other narrative levels. Take a look at this handy web page about narrative scholarship that defines the term and actually uses Star Trek as an example!...
I watched the scene with subtitles on, and apparently he said 'All high-bred areas'. But I wouldn't have known that without subtitles either.
Funny thing is, the Netflix subtitles said "hybrid" - I'm guessing you saw it on CBS?
When you say "creator", I assume you meant GR and/or the other TOS showrunners.
I don't know if it was an actual quote, or a paraphrase, of one the creators, when it was explained that the TMP Klingons were how the Klingons were always intended to look like.
The TNG Klingons essentially had the same look as the TMP ones. So the TNG/DS9/ENT showrunners kept the faith regarding how Klingons should look like. The Discovery Klingons are noticeably different than the TMP/TNG ones. I am wondering if the DSC showrunners are the ones who are deviating from the creator's intent.
That is an interesting idea.
It would have to be complex as you write, because the Klingons don't seem like the "kumbaya, can't we all get along" type(s) of people. The Klingons, however they look, strike me as ethno centric and parochial. There has never been a mixing of any two or more different looking Klingons in any Trek shows. It would seem more likely that the different types would kill or oppress each other rather than get along.
Maybe I would buy that as an in-universe explanation. One type of Klingon overrunning the previous type. Maybe the Discovery type Klingons had their short time in power before the TNG /TOS ones made a comeback.
I read somewhere that the reason he had no eyebrows was that they kept sticking to the inside of the mask when he took it off.
Thanks for the responses everyone.
I like your thinking; any explanation that is commonplace/inherent to the Klingon way of life.
Like Huns, or various tribes, things like scarification, skull binding and piercing might be common.
The leader of house Mokai looked as though he had scarification.
I'm really warming to this explanation. The Klingons were ravaged by the augment virus in the 2160s, and then embarked on some kind of eugenics program to try to breed what they saw as "pure" Klingon features.... introducing atavistic elements back into the Klingon chromosome.
The retrovirus seems to have been reversed by TNG.
Let's hope something along these lines happens in season two. I doubt we have seen the last of all those expensive Klingon props and costumes, even if the war is over. If they show us different Klingons and a D7 or two, that would be very good.
Yeah, agreed, these were great, in terms of makeup.
I think the same guy does the makeup for Discovery as Into Darkness, and he seems to have exaggerated some of the changes he made for the movie, plus added ridges in patterns more resembling TNG Klingons.
I like your thinking; any explanation that is commonplace/inherent to the Klingon way of life.
Like Huns, or various tribes, things like scarification, skull binding and piercing might be common.
The leader of house Mokai looked as though he had scarification.
I'm really warming to this explanation. The Klingons were ravaged by the augment virus in the 2160s, and then embarked on some kind of eugenics program to try to breed what they saw as "pure" Klingon features.... introducing atavistic elements back into the Klingon chromosome.
The retrovirus seems to have been reversed by TNG.
Let's hope something along these lines happens in season two. I doubt we have seen the last of all those expensive Klingon props and costumes, even if the war is over. If they show us different Klingons and a D7 or two, that would be very good.
Yeah, agreed, these were great, in terms of makeup.
I think the same guy does the makeup for Discovery as Into Darkness, and he seems to have exaggerated some of the changes he made for the movie, plus added ridges in patterns more resembling TNG Klingons.
I find the klingon parts of STD to be completely unwatchable so far that I have to skip the scenes. Not just because of their appearance but mainly because of how they speak & how slow and boring the scenes are. They're so dull & characterless.
I like the show but I agree. The Klingons are the worst part of it. I hope they only appear minimally from now on. Their scenes are incredibly laboured. Especially when speaking their own language. Not a personality between them.
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