Kirk's jump in rank makes sense

[BillJ]

McCoy is wearing Lieutenant Commanders' stripes right out of the Academy (after only three years as well!).

He's a doctor. Rank is provided by position alone and does not lead to command.

But Starfleet Academy is a four-year school. Seems a bit early for him to be carrying a Lt. Commander rank.

 

[Islander]

Ok then everybody walks out of the academy a Lieutenant. That makes the jump to Captain proportionally just as impossible and bring the next question, where do Ensigns come from?

 

[Odo's_Bucket]

McCoy is wearing Lieutenant Commanders' stripes right out of the Academy (after only three years as well!).

He's a doctor. Rank is provided by position alone and does not lead to command.

Not to mention that he went to medical school. Eight years of medical school plus your time at the academy equals higher rank. Just like in today's military. Though most doctors in today's military join the military first then use their G.I. Bill and Tuition assistance to go to school. Yes they graduate the academy at the lowest officer rank but then proceed to go through medical school. All the while earning their rightful promotions for those eight years. If they go to medical school first, then those eight years of collage credits will merit that their time in grade be wavered. So they might graduate the academy at the lowest officer rank, then receive a due promotion shortly after.

McCoy's rank in this movie actually does make sense. Kirk's does not.

 

[Ensign_Redshirt]

Ok then everybody walks out of the academy a Lieutenant. That makes the jump to Captain proportionally just as impossible and bring the next question, where do Ensigns come from?

Ensigns obviously don't attend Starfleet Academy, because Chekov would have been 13 years old when he entered Academy (well, it would have made much more sense, had Chekov been a first-year cadet on his first training cruise at the beginning of the movie).

 

[Odo's_Bucket]

Ok then everybody walks out of the academy a Lieutenant. That makes the jump to Captain proportionally just as impossible and bring the next question, where do Ensigns come from?

No. Everyone graduates the academy at the lowest officer rank for that particular branch. In the case of Starfleet, which is modeled after U.S. Navy rank, that rank is Ensign. Starfleet officers leave the academy as Ensigns.

 

[BillJ]

Ok then everybody walks out of the academy a Lieutenant. That makes the jump to Captain proportionally just as impossible and bring the next question, where do Ensigns come from?

Ensigns obviously don't attend Starfleet Academy, because Chekov would have been 13 years old when he entered Academy.

Or since he is a 'whiz-kid', he entered at fifteen.

 

[zambingo]

Ok then everybody walks out of the academy a Lieutenant. That makes the jump to Captain proportionally just as impossible and bring the next question, where do Ensigns come from?

No one suggested that EVERYONE graduates from the academy as a Lieutenant.

 

[Odo's_Bucket]

Ok then everybody walks out of the academy a Lieutenant. That makes the jump to Captain proportionally just as impossible and bring the next question, where do Ensigns come from?

Ensigns obviously don't attend Starfleet Academy, because Chekov would have been 13 years old when he entered Academy.

In order to be an Ensign, you have to have graduated the academy. Cadet while in the academy. Ensign upon graduation.

 

[Odo's_Bucket]

Ok then everybody walks out of the academy a Lieutenant. That makes the jump to Captain proportionally just as impossible and bring the next question, where do Ensigns come from?

Ensigns obviously don't attend Starfleet Academy, because Chekov would have been 13 years old when he entered Academy.

Or since he is a 'whiz-kid', he entered at fifteen.

Chekov joining at 13 is plausible. We don't know what the minimum age requirement is for entering Starfleet service.

 

[Odo's_Bucket]

I like how none of you people have any clue what you're talking about.

 

[zambingo]

Ok then everybody walks out of the academy a Lieutenant. That makes the jump to Captain proportionally just as impossible and bring the next question, where do Ensigns come from?

Ensigns obviously don't attend Starfleet Academy, because Chekov would have been 13 years old when he entered Academy.

In order to be an Ensign, you have to have graduated the academy. Cadet while in the academy. Ensign upon graduation.

Unless otherwise already gained a promotion due to other merits.

ie Uhura, Kirk and in a slightly different scenario McCoy.

 

[zambingo]

I like how none of you people have any clue what you're talking about.

How very superior and condescending.

What, may I ask, makes you the definitive fact stater of this discussion?

Or are you including yourself in your statement? Which makes the first two points invalid.

 

[Islander]

Ok then everybody walks out of the academy a Lieutenant. That makes the jump to Captain proportionally just as impossible and bring the next question, where do Ensigns come from?

Ensigns obviously don't attend Starfleet Academy, because Chekov would have been 13 years old when he entered Academy (well, it would have made much more sense, had Chekov been a first-year cadet on his first training cruise at the beginning of the movie).

Ensigns don't attend the Academy? So, you would let a multi-billion dollard starship be driven by anybody without ANY training whatsoever but then they have to take a 4 year course just to be a Lieutenant?

 

[Odo's_Bucket]

Ensigns obviously don't attend Starfleet Academy, because Chekov would have been 13 years old when he entered Academy.

In order to be an Ensign, you have to have graduated the academy. Cadet while in the academy. Ensign upon graduation.

Unless otherwise already gained a promotion due to other merits.

ie Uhura, Kirk and in a slightly different scenario McCoy.

You can't gain a promotion until you have rank. Cadet is not a rank. You don't get rank until you graduate - when you become an Ensign. You don't have rank when you're in training. That's why they call you cadet. Because you don't have rank. It's the equivalent of calling an enlisted person who is in training a recruit. When you don't have rank, you can't get promoted. It's impossible.

Take it from someone who's spent a decade in the military. Trust me on this. I know what I'm talking about.

 

[Odo's_Bucket]

I like how none of you people have any clue what you're talking about.

How very superior and condescending.

What, may I ask, makes you the definitive fact stater of this discussion?

Or are you including yourself in your statement? Which makes the first two points invalid.

Try ten years military experience and thirty years worth of Star Trek.

 

[zambingo]

In order to be an Ensign, you have to have graduated the academy. Cadet while in the academy. Ensign upon graduation.

Unless otherwise already gained a promotion due to other merits.

ie Uhura, Kirk and in a slightly different scenario McCoy.

You can't gain a promotion until you have rank. Cadet is not a rank. You don't get rank until you graduate - when you become an Ensign. You don't have rank when you're in training. That's why they call you cadet. Because you don't have rank. It's the equivalent of calling an enlisted person who is in training a recruit. When you don't have rank, you can't get promoted. It's impossible.

Take it from someone who's spent a decade in the military. Trust me on this. I know what I'm talking about.

I did not suggest, insist or demand otherwise.

I showed that when Uhura graduated she was a Lieutenant and that the novelization states Kirk was supposed to be too. This means upon graduating these cadets, now ensigns (using your restrictions), were due and thus received an immediate promotion thanks to merits already earned while as cadets.

BTW... your thirty years of Trek experience should have noted to you that Wesley Crusher was a full ensign prior to attending the Academy, I'll concede that as physically at least, but definitely prior to graduation.

 

[BillJ]

In order to be an Ensign, you have to have graduated the academy. Cadet while in the academy. Ensign upon graduation.

Unless otherwise already gained a promotion due to other merits.

ie Uhura, Kirk and in a slightly different scenario McCoy.

You can't gain a promotion until you have rank. Cadet is not a rank. You don't get rank until you graduate - when you become an Ensign. You don't have rank when you're in training. That's why they call you cadet. Because you don't have rank. It's the equivalent of calling an enlisted person who is in training a recruit. When you don't have rank, you can't get promoted. It's impossible.

Take it from someone who's spent a decade in the military. Trust me on this. I know what I'm talking about.

Star Trek has never been consistent with the modern military. So comparisons tend to fail. And this isn't the only time Star Trek has had officers still going to the Academy.

 

[Holodoc]

I get what you and others are saying, I can even concede your point that previous acts of heroism have not awarded promotions (or at least promotions that have been accepted by the characters on screen). I just don't believe that your POV has to be the way it is in this fictional universe. This is an alternate universe and time line, but at the same time we can see somethings remain the same. People with your viewpoint have already conceded that it is likely cadets go on starship assignments prior to graduation.

And? Alright, cadets go on cruises. In which case all cadets go on cruises. In which case everyone who graduated SFA should've had roughly the same amount of experience that Kirk has, or perhaps more, since his three yeares is presented as being rather extraordinary. That still doesn't make his promotion make sense, because from the birth of the Federation until at least Riker's time on the Enterprse D, the original Kirk had set the record for becoming captain. And that record was several years between graduation and promotion to captain. If SFA provides so much experience that it'd be reasonable for people to go right from graduation to the centre seat, even if it was just once in a generation, then it should've already happened by the time Kirk was made captain, and it definitely should've happened by the time Riker was getting his little talking-to from Shelby.

The problem with this is not only that it's absurd on the face of it, but any and all explanations offered fall short of explaining why nobody else, ever, in the history of Starfleet, has managed to do the same thing.

 

[Odo's_Bucket]

Unless otherwise already gained a promotion due to other merits.

ie Uhura, Kirk and in a slightly different scenario McCoy.

You can't gain a promotion until you have rank. Cadet is not a rank. You don't get rank until you graduate - when you become an Ensign. You don't have rank when you're in training. That's why they call you cadet. Because you don't have rank. It's the equivalent of calling an enlisted person who is in training a recruit. When you don't have rank, you can't get promoted. It's impossible.

Take it from someone who's spent a decade in the military. Trust me on this. I know what I'm talking about.

I did not suggest otherwise.

I showed that when Uhura graduated she was a Lieutenant and that the novelization states Kirk was supposed to be too. This means upon graduating these cadets, now ensigns, were due and thus received an immediate promotion thanks to merits already earned while as cadets.

Plausible only if their time in grade as Ensigns, which must be served in order to be eligible for promotion, ie. one year or so, where for some reason wavered.

 

[Odo's_Bucket]

Unless otherwise already gained a promotion due to other merits.

ie Uhura, Kirk and in a slightly different scenario McCoy.

You can't gain a promotion until you have rank. Cadet is not a rank. You don't get rank until you graduate - when you become an Ensign. You don't have rank when you're in training. That's why they call you cadet. Because you don't have rank. It's the equivalent of calling an enlisted person who is in training a recruit. When you don't have rank, you can't get promoted. It's impossible.

Take it from someone who's spent a decade in the military. Trust me on this. I know what I'm talking about.

Star Trek has never been consistent with the modern military. So comparisons tend to fail. And this isn't the only time Star Trek has had officers still going to the Academy.

Wrong. It was always Roddenberry's intent to model the rank and career fields off of the U.S. military, of which he was once a member.