Kirk's jump in rank makes sense

[Odo's_Bucket]

http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Starfleet_ranks

[/QUOTE]


Wrong Universe.[/QUOTE]


OH DEAR GOD. HELP THESE PEOPLE.

 

[chardman]

How anyone can call themselves a fan be completely unaware of the fact that Starfleet rank is based on modern day military rank is beyond me.

There's a huge world of difference between "based on" and "identical to".

To the best of my recollection, "based on", in TOS, never went much further than simply using Naval parlance and rank titles, rather than the jargon and rank systems of other branches of the military. Period. Beyond superficial semantics, the resemblance to real naval practices/promotion/etc was slim to none.

And I really don't understand how having watched Star Trek for thirty years plus isn't long enough to understand the ranking system.

And I question how it is that you watched Trek all those years, and never noticed that we've seen plenty of cadets who were already officers while at the Academy, and/or graduated with ranks well above Ensign?

 

[Holodoc]

The problem with this is not only that it's absurd on the face of it, but any and all explanations offered fall short of explaining why nobody else, ever, in the history of Starfleet, has managed to do the same thing.

Except that we don't know whether it has happened or not. We still know very little about Starfleet's early days.

James Kirk has been referred to, on screen, as the youngest captain in Starfleet history. Will Riker looked set to beat him before he got to the Enterprise, but his eleven year furlough (assuming a year per film) knocked him well out of competition. And if James Kirk did not graduate and immediately become captain, which he did not, and we know that he was the youngest captain in Starfleet, logically we can deduce that nobody has gone straight from SFA to be a captain of a starship.

It might almost be bearable if they hadn't given him the brand new flagship of the Federation... Almost...

 

[JustKate]

^ I thought that was the case, too - but I've been corrected. I think the closest canon came (until now, that is ) is "one of the youngest." No doubt someone with a better memory than I can quote you an episode or movie.

 

[zambingo]

I say this with immense levity, Doc. I've enjoyed our exchanges so far and appreciate what you have brought to the table.

So basically we're now seeing a point in your POV that it might be okay if Kirk was a captain, just not the captain of the Enterprise.

LOL

Do you not see the fault in your POV's conclusion?

James T. Kirk is to the Enterprise as Clark Kent is to the Daily Planet. As Batman is to the Batcave. As Mickey Mantle is to the Yankees.

 

[Lt. Trull]

JT Kirk said before he left that he'd graduate from starfleet academy in three years not four; who's to say he didn't... O wait.... aparently he did....

 

[Holodoc]

I say this with immense levity, Doc. I've enjoyed our exchanges so far and appreciate what you have brought to the table.

So basically we're now seeing a point in your POV that it might be okay if Kirk was a captain, just not the captain of the Enterprise.

LOL

Do you not see the fault in your POV's conclusion?

James T. Kirk is to the Enterprise as Clark Kent is to the Daily Planet. As Batman is to the Batcave. As Mickey Mantle is to the Yankees.

In which case they should've had a 'X Years Later' subtitle when he was being awarded his captaincy of the Enterprise. It's not my fault if the producers are too lazy to come up with any reason beyond 'fate' or 'destiny' to explain their plotlines.

And no, I don't think there's any fault in my POV's conclusion. If Kirk absolutely, positively has to be given a captaincy after his graduation (and I don't see any reason whatsoever why that must be the case), then logically he should've been given a smaller, less essential, less prestigious vessel than the Federation flagship itself. Whatever the 23rd century equivalent to an Akira or a Defiant class starship, perhaps; something small, with punch, that doesn't require him to get too far away from someone experienced or exercise too much in the way of freedom in his command. All Kirk has demonstrated at this point is a debateable facility in battle, so I see no justification for giving him a ship of exploration and diplomacy.

 

[Fid]

Unless otherwise already gained a promotion due to other merits.

ie Uhura, Kirk and in a slightly different scenario McCoy.

You can't gain a promotion until you have rank. Cadet is not a rank. You don't get rank until you graduate - when you become an Ensign. You don't have rank when you're in training. That's why they call you cadet. Because you don't have rank. It's the equivalent of calling an enlisted person who is in training a recruit. When you don't have rank, you can't get promoted. It's impossible.

Take it from someone who's spent a decade in the military. Trust me on this. I know what I'm talking about.

Star Trek has never been consistent with the modern military. So comparisons tend to fail. And this isn't the only time Star Trek has had officers still going to the Academy.

Sorry, First post here. I've been lurking for quite some time and just had to chime in...

In reality, Cadets at our service academies do have ranking from 4th class to 1st class.

Also, from the TOS through some of the movies they were VERY consistent with the modern military. It shouldn't come as a surprise. It was one of the strengths of TOS. TWOK is an good example where the cadets are given a real life training cruise with instructors on board as well (Lt. Savik).

preKirk graduated as an Ensign, then rose in rank.

Who knows what is happening in this film.

P.S. Battlefield promotions are usually temporary, in the real world.

 

[Jax]

Doesn't anyone find it strange that a Multi planet/species Organization like the Federation follows America's 20th century ranks and structure . For that reason I have no problem in believing a guy who saves Earth is made Captain and is made First Officer before on a ship manned by so many cadets since hes one of the best and brightest there anyway.

 

[JustKate]

^ ^ I have to agree with Fid - Trek has generally been consistent with current military ranks - with some exceptions of course, but at least up through Voyager. I didn't watch ENT that much, so I can't say there. I think most people who have served in the military would agree that the rank structure and the way people seem to move through the ranks bear a striking resemblance to the way it works now.

The main exception I know of is that it's apparently OK in Starfleet to hit a certain rank and stay there, whereas in the U.S. military, at least, you need to keep getting regular promotions, at least up to a point, or else you have to get out.

Edit: Oh, and while I am comparing it to the U.S. military because that's the one I'm most familiar with, I think it works the same in a lot of other Earth militaries, too. I mean, the U.S. didn't make up this stuff from scratch.

 

[TIN_MAN]

^^ Over at Trekmovie.com the writers of the movie are answering Q's, and said they deliberatly left the time lapse between cadet kirk saving the planet and him being promoted to cap't, vague so that the audiance could fill in the the blanks, or words to that effect.

 

[JustKate]

^ Ah. Clever!

 

[Holodoc]

^^ Over at Trekmovie.com the writers of the movie are answering Q's, and said they deliberatly left the time lapse between cadet kirk saving the planet and him being promoted to cap't, vague so that the audiance could fill in the the blanks, or words to that effect.

Given that not one of the defenders of the idea here has pointed that out, it appears this wasn't exactly a rousingly successfully strategy...

 

[TIN_MAN]

Well, what confused me initially is, I thought that the medal Kirk got was for saving the planet? But maybe it was a token of his captaincy? I'll have to see the movie again.

 

[Lt. Trull]

Opps'd

 

[Lt. Trull]

what was the medal he as given by the way?

 

[Lt. Trull]

opps'd

 

[clint g]

Rank becomes meaningless if you just give it away left and right, starship troopers style.

So by "meaningless" you don't literally mean that rank has no meaning, just that it doesn't have the meaning you wish it had.

No, I mean that its meaningless

Yes, he needs more experience. Why? Because he is a Cadet who has been given command of a starship and several hundred people with it as well.

That's not a reason, or a kind of experience. You've probably got a very plausible argument to make, but you haven't bothered to make it yet.

Actually it is a reason. You just refuse to see it

What, specifically, does Captain Kirk need to know that he can't plausibly know by the end of the film. How would serving as a (fill in the blank) teach him those things?

For starters, he doesn't know what its like to be a department head.

 

[zambingo]

I would swear to my memory that the admiral specifically mentioned the medal was for saving the planet. If this is correct it could mean that if what the writers said at Trekmovie is true then the writers are retconning already. Probably due to pressure from fans that refuse to leave the real world behind when watching a fantastical and extremely Hollywoodized adventure.

This Star Trek film followed the classic hero's journey to perfection. Real world science, logic, historical or modern societal implications cannot be applied like shackles to a world of phasers and warp speed, the real world comparisons are only to provide a basis for the audience to come to terms with the tale's surroundings.

In this film Starfleet was occupied by another disaster in a different system, who knows how many ships were damaged or lost in whatever the heck was going on there. But they were SO OCCUPIED that they could not get to Vulcan OR to Earth to aid the Enterprise even at high warp speeds. The fleet that was sent to Vulcan was destroyed. Kirk commanded the Enterprise with authority and decisiveness, his decisions and ability to lead saved the Federation from an advanced and destructive enemy. 6+ billion lives were lost, countless more were in the balance.

3 years passed unexplained prior to the adventure. The official novelization states Kirk was already meritted/vested enough to gain a rank of Lieutenant. A rank not normally gained by cadets and a rank which on top of not normally being obtained by cadets Kirk proved himself worthy of with 1 year less of Academy vesting than normally required. Continually as the film unfolds more and more evidence to Kirk's ability is shown and implied. Kirk's "end game" actions are then rewarded thusly in the epilogue of the film.

Kirk was never ever an average or even just above average cadet. Kirk's aptitude is stressed several times by Pike, Kirk's age is even greater than what is assumed to be for normal/non-field specialized (aka doctors) cadets... which implies he's been doing something with his life OTHER than just being a trouble maker. Kirk IS the Captain of the Enterprise and this can't be changed without a severe retcon editing hack to this film. We as fans must accept it or leave it. You do have that choice.

 

[clint g]

We as fans must accept it or leave it. You do have that choice.

I have a third option for you. We as fans can enjoy the film and yet at the same time remain critical of what we view as crappy plot development. I loved the film. I thought it was great. That doesn't mean I think its flawless, and there is no reason why I shouldn't judge this film on both its merits and its flaws. I believe his rank is a flaw in the plot. This thread is about his rank. There is no reason why I shouldnt state my opinion in a thread such as this.