The film states it's case for Kirk's promotion. People here have shown how that is valid. While that may not work for some, which is understandable, it is asinine to continually insist the film is wrong or in some other subtle way that perhaps it should be or should have been changed do to personal feelings about Trek Prime or real life implications. The film is as it is. There are valid points to explain it's events, supported by official canon for the film and then some fanon possibilities. 12 pages of various points that show the film can work and does. Meanwhile the opposition repeatedly cling to some truth, in their point of view, that Kirk just could not ever be promoted captain under the circumstances. If you're a repeated debater in these 12 pages perhaps then IT IS TIME to consider that you must accept it or leave it. Life is short. It is what it is.
Kirk's jump in rank makes sense
- Thread starter awesomeocalypse
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And I believe the films case was ridiculous and you're beliefs are flawed.
This is a message board. it is designed for people to talk to each other. Whats the point of the BBS if everyone agreed and just left it at that. Sounds like a pretty boring place to me. It does seem to me however that you are having hard time dealing with that. I'll be blunt with you. Ive been here a looooong time. Ive stated my piece and debated with people who disagreed with me. Thats what this forum exists for. If you dont like it then I suggest you bounce.
That would have made me happier.
I have to agree there. From a Horatio Hornblower perspective (and since Kirk was originally patterned so closely on him) it does seem very plausible.
You just gave the most concise description of James T. Kirk anyone ever did.
clint g, I am well aware of the purpose of a bulletin board. I also agree that a bulletin board where everyone agrees would probably be boring and dead. I never insinuated otherwise, nor have I suggested that only people with the same point of view should keep posting on these forums. My point was specifically addressed to this thread and the subject therein.
I stated the film is what it is. That the case is made for the film. Unless you can become employed at Paramount and/or convince them to re-edit and re-issue the film it simply is what it is. To continually insist the sky is neon green when it is blue and has shown to be blue is no longer a discussion of any merit. It is a rant.
If you have been a debater in this thread from the beginning and have not come to terms with what is presented in the film and reasserted here with convincing diligence, and instead you continually choose to come back to stress how the film is wrong despite valid evidence to the contrary then you are simply standing upon a soapbox like a drunken hobo on a street corner.
The film shows Kirk deserved his promotion. There is canon evidence to support such a stance. Debating on whether the Vulcan society can survive is open and valid. Debating on whether this film exists in Trek Prime or within it's own different universe completely such as a Mirror Universe like scenario is completely open and valid. Kirk's promotion has now, 13 pages in, been shown to be supported by the film's events and it's universe. To suggest otherwise is to rally around your own version of reality for the film and it's universe.
There are plenty of other discussions to debate. What do you realistically hope to gain by clinging to your stance? How can such a lockjaw POV in a debate with a definitive answer outside of pure opinion be healthy to maintain? And as for comparing your time vested on these forums... this can be seen as purely a dick measurement type of argument and would seem to hold no validity except as an attempt to rally a clique and attempt to force an newbie away. However perhaps I have misunderstood your intent just your assumption to my intent was incorrect. As it stands right now your aggression seems unwarranted.
I stated the film is what it is. That the case is made for the film. Unless you can become employed at Paramount and/or convince them to re-edit and re-issue the film it simply is what it is. To continually insist the sky is neon green when it is blue and has shown to be blue is no longer a discussion of any merit. It is a rant.
If you have been a debater in this thread from the beginning and have not come to terms with what is presented in the film and reasserted here with convincing diligence, and instead you continually choose to come back to stress how the film is wrong despite valid evidence to the contrary then you are simply standing upon a soapbox like a drunken hobo on a street corner.
The film shows Kirk deserved his promotion. There is canon evidence to support such a stance. Debating on whether the Vulcan society can survive is open and valid. Debating on whether this film exists in Trek Prime or within it's own different universe completely such as a Mirror Universe like scenario is completely open and valid. Kirk's promotion has now, 13 pages in, been shown to be supported by the film's events and it's universe. To suggest otherwise is to rally around your own version of reality for the film and it's universe.
There are plenty of other discussions to debate. What do you realistically hope to gain by clinging to your stance? How can such a lockjaw POV in a debate with a definitive answer outside of pure opinion be healthy to maintain? And as for comparing your time vested on these forums... this can be seen as purely a dick measurement type of argument and would seem to hold no validity except as an attempt to rally a clique and attempt to force an newbie away. However perhaps I have misunderstood your intent just your assumption to my intent was incorrect. As it stands right now your aggression seems unwarranted.
Says the guy on page 13...
A fair point, but I have found over the years that that pay-grade shorthand is pretty readily understood in this kind of discussion, and avoids the cumbersome "colonel/navy captain/RAF group captain" thing.
I hope that refers to the case, rather than the indignation!
That's true, just as being a brigade or cruiser commanding officer involves skill sets different from those of a platoon leader or division officer. It's not especially appealing to our more romantic notions of military virtue, but commanding officers are managers and administrators as well as fighting leaders.
It's not simply screening, it's a process of professional development. Entry-level responsibility is followed with more training and more responsibility, with the most successful being given more training and more responsibility and so on. It may seem slow and staid and too conservative to some, but military organizations are understandably risk-averse, and many years of experience have gone into creating effective systems of officer development. The system Starfleet uses may bear little resemblance to what we know today, sure. But I can't posit any development that would make starship command such a casual commodity as to be awarded to someone with barely any record of command experience.
^ I thought that was the case, too - but I've been corrected. I think the closest canon came (until now, that is) is "one of the youngest." No doubt someone with a better memory than I can quote you an episode or movie.
In The Making of Star Trek, which used a lot of writer's guide stuff, it said Kirk was the youngest Academy grad to attain starship command. But never on-screen AFAIK. TMoST also said he had previously commanded a smaller, destroyer-type ship.
--Justin
What you say here is absolutely key. It is absolutely likely that rank systems will change with time. As with anything else however, there are trends and the trends show that the likelihood off a newly commissioned officer becoming a field grade officer are slim to none. It stretches credibility. As I said in another thread, dramatically, its also a missed opportunity because it essentially skips over the period of time when people develop their command style and shape what type of leader they become. It doesnt matter how smart you are or how much potential you have, leadership style is something that develops over time as you meet other people and its the type of thing that gets built as you work your way up the chain.
What is truly interesting is that everything you have just stated is very easily applied to you. It is the proverbial pot calling the kettle black. I consider it a discussion. You apparently consider it "dickish". Considering that you are on page thirteen stubbornly trying to defend something which makes little sense, I must say you really are standing on shaky ground when it comes to passing judgment on your fellow posters. Id suggest you stop, youre cutting your own argument off at the knees.
I've been thinking about it more. The true outrage is Pike making Kirk first officer. Only if you accept if Pike knew Kirk was going to get a special commendation for original thinking would the promotion be anything but a slap in the face to the powers that be. Once comes back from Vulcan, Kirks a field-commisioned Commander serving under Captain Spock. Spock gives up his field promotion leaving Kirk as acting captain and Pike's natural #1.
This is big. Unless Pike decides to demote Kirk or the admiralty laughs at Pike, Kirk stays Pike's first officer. Yes, it was a wartime crisis promotion... but what in the movie suggests that Starfleet believes the crisis is over.
This is big. Unless Pike decides to demote Kirk or the admiralty laughs at Pike, Kirk stays Pike's first officer. Yes, it was a wartime crisis promotion... but what in the movie suggests that Starfleet believes the crisis is over.
Dusty Ayres
Commodore
That last part you mentioned felt like the end news broadcast of Starship Troopers:
'We have the ships...we have the technology...
....But we need the people-people like Captain James T. Kirk ('All hands, this is the captain-get ready to go to warp!')
-People like first officer Spock ('All sensors are functioning!')
-CMO Leonard 'Bones' McCoy ('I'll be in Sick Bay if you need me')
-Lieutennants Pavel Chekov & Hikaru Sulu ('All systems ready for warp, sir!')
'THEY"LL KEEP ON EXPLORING-AND THE FEDERATION WILL BE BETTER FOR IT!
You guys are killing me, here. Stop using Hornblower as an example! It makes no sense whatsoever from a Horatio Hornblower perspective! Pick another character to reference, one for which the concept of instant promotion to flagship commander from student actually makes some kind of narrative sense, because I can assure you, if Horatio Hornblower saw James Kirk's promotion scene in this movie it would blow his freaking mind.
This is the problem, from a lot of people's perspectives. There's no reason to assume that this Kirk was substantially better than the original Kirk, which means that, slight differences in character aside, their days at SFA should be roughly equivalent. If this Kirk was a brilliant student, the other one should have been, too. Which means the only real difference was the reappearance of Nero and the subsequent events. Which, in turn, means that Kirk isn't so much getting the Enterprise in recognition of his actions (he really does almost nothing to directly contribute to the success of the mission, and even less of it from the position of captain) but as a reward for being in charge when the crisis was resolved. And we don't like, indeed we utterly dislike, the idea that the Federation flagship is, not a posting of great honour and respect to be striven towards to the best of an officers abilities, but some prize that you can be handed if you just happen to be in the right place at the right time, regardless of how little evidence there is that you really deserve it.
Here's a thought. Spock [Prime] approaches the starfleet brass at the academy, explains that Kirk is The Shit and regales them with tales of Kirk gone by from his own timeline. The Brass are so impressed they figure frakk it we might as well have this guy on the frontline, seemed to work out alright according to that pointy-eared bastard.
^ I don't think Spock Prime would do that. He of all people should know the dangers of tampering with history. There's been too much of that already. Even though it won't affect the timeline he comes from, it will affect this one. The Vulcans, after all, invented the Prime Directive...
One point I didn't consider is how much time went by between the end of the film and Kirk's promotion. It could have been immediate, could have been weeks or even months. That, plus the fact that Kirk technically already had a rank (Lieutenant), makes it easier to deal with.
One point I didn't consider is how much time went by between the end of the film and Kirk's promotion. It could have been immediate, could have been weeks or even months. That, plus the fact that Kirk technically already had a rank (Lieutenant), makes it easier to deal with.
The film is unclear (deliberately according to the screenplay authors) about how much time passes before Kirk gets promoted. I don't think it is very effective at suggesting the passage of a suitable amount of time (the most I would infer is about six months, if we count repairs and certification thereof)--I still think a little blurb (2-4 years later) would have been better. It's not a deal breaker, though, for me and, I'd wager, for the vast majority of the film's audience.
I have trouble accepting that Spock, who actually knew James Kirk and would be well aware of those times when he screwed the pooch, rather than just the sanitised, heroic version of him presented to the public at large, would do this. Spock knows Kirk well enough to know that Kirk needed a bit of tempering before he was ready to be let loose on the galaxy at large, and he also knows that Kirk had various formative experiences on other people's ships, under the command of other captains, that made him the man he is. It would make no logical sense for him to further warp this version of Kirk (an already fractured version of the man he knew) just because of what his dead friend did later in a career that won't unfold the same way regardless.
Thats kinda what i daid in an earlier post.
If there was a preface to the scene with a stardate, so many months/years later it wouldve been ok, i wouldve got that.
but again, not being clear to distinguish these things is exactly the thing with Delta Vega. I mean, WTF. Give us something to separate the two and hey presto, its easy.
I didnt notice his rank in the promotion scene though. Missed that.
But again, as there wasnt a date or preface, we dont know how long its been, so average movie goer with no idea on rank systems wont have a clue.
Hm, that's interesting. Pike's uniform does seem to suggest a greater passage of time, too.
I'd have been happier had they let more time pass between Kirk entering the Academy and taking the KM test, though. I think the real mistake was insinuating that it was a part of basic academy training, rather than some special command-school test.
^ I thought that was the case, too - but I've been corrected. I think the closest canon came (until now, that is
In The Making of Star Trek, which used a lot of writer's guide stuff, it said Kirk was the youngest Academy grad to attain starship command. But never on-screen AFAIK. TMoST also said he had previously commanded a smaller, destroyer-type ship.
--Justin
I'd always taken the TMoST reference to mean that Kirk commanded that destroyer as a Lieutenant Commander or Commander, personally, and that "youngest captain" meant that he was the youngest officer to achieve a command when he commanded that ship, not when he made Captain's rank or when he was on the Enterprise.
Well, since this clearly became a point of contention and I skimmed over it, allow me to clarify - I could see this working in a military where the ranks and regs aren't very strictly adhered to. In my mind, this was a Hornblower-era navy, but from the little Hornblower I've read I can appreciate your objection here.
Sigh after 13 pages of deep discussion I threw that in rather flippantly. I had hoped it wouldn't be taken too seriously
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