Kirk's death
- Thread starter Bones2
- Start date
QFT.
Except then we would have a lost one of the main subplots of "Star Trek: First Contact", which would have been unfortunate in my estimation, because it was part of what made the movie work so well. If they'd wanted to kill him in an earlier movie, I think it should have been "Insurrection" at the earliest. Killing off a major member of a crew in that crew's first big screen adventure makes no sense too.
To the ones who say that they should have traveled longer back in time, wouldn't this create a paradox? There would suddently be two Picards in that timeline, but once they stop Soran, Picard would never have gone into the Nexus to begin with, and if he didn't, then he couldn't have stopped Soran 
You get my drift?
But if there would be no Paradoxes, and we would just have to accept having two new Picards in this timeline, then Kirk should either stay in the Nexus or come back alive, while Picard should travel back in time to save his nephew and brother from the fire... After saving them, he could send a message to the Enterprise instructing them to not release Soran and fill them in on what's happening, and Kirk could stay alive.
You get my drift?But if there would be no Paradoxes, and we would just have to accept having two new Picards in this timeline, then Kirk should either stay in the Nexus or come back alive, while Picard should travel back in time to save his nephew and brother from the fire... After saving them, he could send a message to the Enterprise instructing them to not release Soran and fill them in on what's happening, and Kirk could stay alive.
Time travel gives you headaches...
To the ones who say that they should have traveled longer back in time, wouldn't this create a paradox? There would suddently be two Picards in that timeline, but once they stop Soran, Picard would never have gone into the Nexus to begin with, and if he didn't, then he couldn't have stopped Soran
Obviously, you let one Picard die to stop Soran. If it failed, Picard could keep going back again and again and again until there was an army.
I've always thought the simplest way would have been for Kirk to pop back to the Enterprise-B right after he 'died' and arrest Soran. I'm not sure how he would have made that stick though, and besides that might have altered history too much unless that one line about 'the mission where James Kirk was killed' by Riker was deleted. Then we can assume it was a predestination paradox of some kind that Kirk popped back out, but then there'd still be the issue of Soran in the future timeline.
Overall, the Nexus time travel bit sucked and should have been avoided at all costs. Q could have been used to accomplish the same goal of having the captains meet.
To the ones who say that they should have traveled longer back in time, wouldn't this create a paradox? There would suddently be two Picards in that timeline, but once they stop Soran, Picard would never have gone into the Nexus to begin with, and if he didn't, then he couldn't have stopped Soran
Obviously, you let one Picard die to stop Soran. If it failed, Picard could keep going back again and again and again until there was an army.
I've always thought the simplest way would have been for Kirk to pop back to the Enterprise-B right after he 'died' and arrest Soran. I'm not sure how he would have made that stick though, and besides that might have altered history too much unless that one line about 'the mission where James Kirk was killed' by Riker was deleted. Then we can assume it was a predestination paradox of some kind that Kirk popped back out, but then there'd still be the issue of Soran in the future timeline.
Overall, the Nexus time travel bit sucked and should have been avoided at all costs. Q could have been used to accomplish the same goal of having the captains meet.
For some reason when I think about Picard traveling back to a different time in the past I picure him going back to before the Enterprise-B launched and changed the date on the Starfleet calender so every one would think it was the next Tuesday.
I have no problem having Kirk die, as long as it was done in the right way.
What does QFT means? Really English isn't my native language. Never mind, back to to topic. Kirk Death in Gen is perhaps the worst scene in Star Trek movie history
. Come on, killing Captain Kirk, the greatest hero that Science Fiction has ever produced, but then killing him with SCAFFOLDING? It like having John Wayne break his neck tripping over the spittoon in the saloon!
QFT means 'quoted for truth.' It's a fancy way of saying that you almost totally or totally agree with what you're quoting.
When I first saw people using that on the Internet, I thought it meant "QUITE FUCKING TRUE". If you intepret it that way, it still has the same meaning.
And yes, one can defend the logic behind Kirk's death all they want, but the fact remains that crushing them with a freaking scaffolding/bridge is a pretty lame way to kill someone off. Especially compared to something as elegant as Spock dying slowly and softly with poetic last words in a chamber.
Nardpuncher
Rear Admiral
Many have said that if was as though Picard just brought Kirk to help him punch Soran in the face. heck, he even asked Guinan to come before he found Kirk! Poor writing.
You should probably read David R. George's Crucible: Kirk: The Star to Every Wandering, which explains and explores Generations from Kirk's perspective. DRG explains away one paradox from the film -- where's the Picard that was already on Veridian III when Kirk and Picard left the Nexus? The answer is... surprising.To the ones who say that they should have traveled longer back in time, wouldn't this create a paradox? There would suddently be two Picards in that timeline, but once they stop Soran, Picard would never have gone into the Nexus to begin with, and if he didn't, then he couldn't have stopped Soran
My problem with Kirk's death in Generations is that I felt like he was dying for no purpose. Who were the people of Veridian IV? We never met them, we had no idea who they were, we had no idea why they were important. The audience isn't invested in the stakes, and Picard never really sells Kirk on that investment, either.
I've imagined a revised ending to the film where Soran's plan is bigger. Rather than just get himself back into the Nexus, his plan involves getting all of the Lakul survivors back into the Nexus. Maybe existing on two planes of reality causes them mental anguish. And he's licked the problem.
Only, he can't do that in the 24th century. The Lakul survivors are too scattered. Some might have gone mad. Some might be dead.
So, he has to go back in time to the launch of the Enterprise-B.
And Kirk and Picard follow him back to stop him from wrecking history.
And then Kirk would die in the ensuing fight with the future Soran, back on the Enterprise-B. Which keeps Riker's line intact.
Getting Picard back to his time, I had a clever idea there.
He's cyrogenically frozen. But he lies to the Department of Temporal Investigations, and he has himself woken a day before the fire, so he gets the chance for his brother and nephew to live. And when Picard "disappears" during the Veridian mission, history is back to normal.
That's pretty good, Allyn Gibson, but I think the opportunity presents itself there nicely to have Kirk not 'really' die and let the Nexus undo it all.
I see two choices here: either remove the Riker line as I suggested, or have Picard emerge in a just slightly different future - i.e., Kirk died peacefully in his home several years prior.
As for returning Picard? I have a simpler suggestion: Picard is sucked into the Nexus just as Kirk was at the beginning, but is able to have the Nexus deposit himself on the bridge of the Enterprise-D in time to deal with the Duras sisters.
Why is Picard able to resist the Nexus? One, because he's been there and done that before, but two, and most importantly, because Picard has finally realized, via meeting Kirk, that on the bridge of his ship is where he truly wants to be, and no 'illusory heaven' or fake family is a substitute. I also think as a man or principle, Picard would reject trying to save his brother and nephew.
I also think Q could have been involved as a better deus ex machina.
I see two choices here: either remove the Riker line as I suggested, or have Picard emerge in a just slightly different future - i.e., Kirk died peacefully in his home several years prior.
As for returning Picard? I have a simpler suggestion: Picard is sucked into the Nexus just as Kirk was at the beginning, but is able to have the Nexus deposit himself on the bridge of the Enterprise-D in time to deal with the Duras sisters.
Why is Picard able to resist the Nexus? One, because he's been there and done that before, but two, and most importantly, because Picard has finally realized, via meeting Kirk, that on the bridge of his ship is where he truly wants to be, and no 'illusory heaven' or fake family is a substitute. I also think as a man or principle, Picard would reject trying to save his brother and nephew.
I also think Q could have been involved as a better deus ex machina.
It's always the same wherever this discussion is taking place. Those who think it was a good send off use the "He died as a hero, saving millions of lives!" I'm sorry, but that's not what bothers me about it, and my guess is same goes for most of us. The bad thing about the death is HOW he died, not WHAT he died for. It was poor writing, and completely unnecessary. No torch was needed for this film, we got a great ending in TUC, they should have left it that way.
I wish the Ron Moore of 2009 could use the Nexus to go back and do a re-write for the Ron Moore of 1994.
It's not like Ron Moore wasn't already a talented writer back then. Look at some of the TNG episodes he wrote and co-wrote. He (and his co-writer, Braga) on Generations just had an off-day with that script. Based on what I've read about the production process for that movie, it sounds like the pressure basically just got to them and they cracked. At the time, they were also working on the last season of TNG, having to deal with making a worthy send-off to that and a suitably epic big screen debut for it. All this was probably just too much to handle. Oh well, at least they handled it well enough to make a great series finale.
^The funny thing is that they were supposedly working on Generations for a year, but only had a couple of weeks to crank out "All Good Things..."
Sometimes too much time to work on something can be your enemy rather than your friend.
Sometimes too much time to work on something can be your enemy rather than your friend.
