Kirk's death
- Thread starter Bones2
- Start date
I felt like it was a no-brainer to have Kirk die doing what he did best..commanding a ship.
His death in Generations while heroic, left me feeling empty.
His death in Generations while heroic, left me feeling empty.
I do.
I can find GEN worse, because GEN violently disregarded everything that was great about TNG, and turned in an inconceivably hurried plot, coupled with ridiculous character development (if you could even call Data's clown activites that).
Kirk's death only made it worse, because it was so uneeded and unecessary - more of an afterthought.
INS's problem was that it created a scenario where Picard was potentially wrong, plus it was boring, but it was neither embarrisngly bad nor offensively stupid. And NEM was fine, even if vastly flawed.
If it hadn't been for DS9 later on, I might have been able to forgive Moore for the awful script he turned in. But he redeemed himself afterwards, thankfully.
I'll give you cinematography, it was awesome. But score? Its easily the most forgettable Trek score, save for a cue when Kirk actually dies. And there's a tv quality in the score that I don't appreciate.
How on Earth did it 'disregard everything great about TNG'? It was the only TNG movie that still felt like TNG.
Agreed, even if it was more of a 'mandate' than an afterthought.
"And have you noticed how your boobs have started to firm up..."
Your move.
Fine but flawed?
Picard says, 'Hey Worf and Data, let's go ride our space dune buggy and shoot some aliens in complete violation of the Prime Directive to retrieve a copy of Data no one ever knew existed, then make a slightly cool looking but boring jump into a shuttle.'
Data says, 'I know, I'll be like Spock and make a backup of myself so when I die pointlessly at the end of this movie, if I want to come back for another one I can.'
Were we watching the same movies?
So do I.
trevanian
Rear Admiral
I rank FC down there with the nimoy-directed films and NEMESIS myself, at the bottom of the barrel. GEN is a mess of a film, but at least there is some joy in watching parts (mainly the first 10min.) FC is just such a grind to me. Endless sneaking round the ship, lip service to century 24 idealism, and really nice model work undone by Berman insisting ILM paint out the clouds so it looks like the models are orbiting a rand mcnally globe. Plus this is after a nuke war, yet the devastation is pretty much unseen. Total missed opportunity. Ins is a partial missed op, because Picard being wrong (a la Q WHO, not as in his Tarzan-moron mode of FC) could have been awesome.
So which is worse, total missed opportunity or mess of a movie that is fun?
Depends on your tastes and the franchise in question, probably.
TVH is easily the most forgettable score.
All a matter of taste, TVH is one of my favorite Trek soundtracks. The music totally fits the tenor of the film. I love it.
trevanian
Rear Admiral
Hard to avoid thinking of MARCUS WELBY when I hear it. But if they really wanted to change tone, then they should have adopted the whales free theme for when the ship leaves at the end, since they too are getting a second chance with the new ship. Thematically it would have worked better, and might have caused me to overlook a lot of the stupidity that keeps me from enjoying it (I have not been able to watch it straight through in 15 years.)
As I said, its a matter of taste. TVH is one of my favorite Trek films (I think the first 4 are almost pure gold, despite a few problems in TMP) and the score fits the movie incredibly well.
You know, now that you say that, the theme does have a certain sped-up 'Marcus Welby' quality to it. Then again, I hadn't ever seen 'Marcus Welby' until very recently anyway.
I do feel that the TVH theme is somewhat forgettable, in the sense that whenever watch the movie, I feel surprised when I hear the theme, perhaps because it's a departure from TWOK and TSFS? I don't dislike it (I actually do rather like the uptempo approach) and it certainly seems to fit. I just overlook it, I suppose.
I too loved Nemesis. I think it's the best of the TNG films. I'm more of a TOS first three films fan.
For one, its the cinematic of the TNG films - more so than FC (though, not by much). Second, the themes of the movie are much better and more appealing than the "themes" of INS and especially GEN. And while GEN had a good intention with the mortality angle, the movie had "too many cooks", so to speak, and it failed to register those themes because it was too disjointed and the story was, well, asinine bull.
I very much enjoyed the Picard-Shinzon parallel, and the Data-Picard talk later on where they adress this. The Picard-Data scenes in fact, deleted and not, reminded of their great moments in the show. All too missed in the films, sadly.
I very much enjoyed the Picard-Shinzon parallel, and the Data-Picard talk later on where they adress this. The Picard-Data scenes in fact, deleted and not, reminded of their great moments in the show. All too missed in the films, sadly.
I used to think Kirk's death sucked because of the fall from that bridge, but that's not the whole truth. Kirk's death sucked because, in the end, it need not have happened. Inside the Nexus, as we are told, time has no meaning. Based on that premise, where's the sense of urgency? Picard and Kirk could have screwed up, been sucked into the Nexus, returned to the exact same point in time and tried again as many times as they wanted to until they succeeded. Kirk didn't have to die.
Technically speaking, Spock didn't have to die in The Wrath of Khan, either, but his sacrifice is more significant because of the dire emergency that the Enterprise crew had no way of avoiding unless someone repaired the engines, exposing themselves to a lethal dose of radiation in the process. As McCoy pointed out, no human could have taken that kind of punishment, so Spock (being only half-human) seemed the most logical candidate. Kirk's death in Generations was far more avoidable than this.
Technically speaking, Spock didn't have to die in The Wrath of Khan, either, but his sacrifice is more significant because of the dire emergency that the Enterprise crew had no way of avoiding unless someone repaired the engines, exposing themselves to a lethal dose of radiation in the process. As McCoy pointed out, no human could have taken that kind of punishment, so Spock (being only half-human) seemed the most logical candidate. Kirk's death in Generations was far more avoidable than this.
