Kirk's death

[Bones2]

I know it's probably been discussed here more times than I've seen The Voyage Home, but I'm new and have opinions.

The received wisdom seems to be that Kirk's death in Generations was poorly handled and an empty way to kill off such a legend. Personally, I disagree. After all, Kirk died helping to save millions of people from being killed by a madman. Further, to instead keep him alive in the TNG era would have felt a bit silly. We already have Spock there (fair enough, he's a Vulcan), McCoy (fair enough, he was a very old man), and Scotty (fair enough, Relics was a decent storyline), but it is called The Next Generation.

Further, I wouldn't consider it an empty death; he did after all choose to leave the Nexus to help Picard stop Soren, which was heroic. And after his apparent death on the Enterprise B (seemingly fulfilling his prophecy that he'd die alone), to instead have that other legendary captain of the Enterprise with him in his last moments felt like a true passing of the torch. And his last line "it was fun" was perfect; capturing the playful and adventurous spirit of the original series.

Well, there are my thoughts anyway. I just think that Kirk's death was actually well done.

 

[Ar-Pharazon]

I think most people thought the "falling down the mountain in a piece of bridge" was the lame, porrly done part. But, would the original "being shot in the back by Soran" have been better?

Maybe Kirk going off into the great black yonder in a shuttle (like Scotty) would have been better for some. Would've left something to the imagination. Our imaginations, not Shatner's, not that I thought The Return was bad, just a little over the top.

 

[Emperor-Tiberius]

Both scripted and filmed deaths for Kirk were bad. Very, very bad.

Personally, he never died.

"The Return" rules!

 

[Bones2]

Well I'm certainly glad they changed it from being shot in the back. But not only is dying on the bridge a good pun, there's also an emotional death scene with Picard. I think Kirk died a hero, and that's reasonable enough.

 

[Praetor]

I don't believe 'Star Trek' heroes should be immortal. I think that had been mishandled many times. Spock makes sense to still be alive, being half-Vulcan. McCoy was very old at the beginning of TNG, and one might argue his death happened soon after. The Scotty transporter thing was fun, but a bad idea. Apparently in the books Uhura and Chekov are still floating around too.

Kirk's death worked for me well enough, but I don't believe it was necessary to be shown at all. I understand they wanted a cross-generation film and more than a symbolic passing of the torch, but I'd argue it was unneccessary. Had 'Yesterday's Enterprise' been saved for the film, it might have worked with Kirk's Enterprise in place of Garrett's, but that just wasn't the case.

I'd have much preferred Admiral Kirk to have appeared in place of Admiral Jameson in 'Too Short a Season' as was originally planned, as it was actually a direct follow up to TOS.

Failing that, I've always thought that the TNG era should have avoided the TOS crew entirely with the exception of Spock. Not writing their final chapter leaves something to the imagination and gives them a sort of immortality without actually making them immortal. Occasional references would have been more than enough for me.

 

[IrritatingGameOfChess]

I'd have much preferred Admiral Kirk to have appeared in place of Admiral Jameson in 'Too Short a Season' as was originally planned, as it was actually a direct follow up to TOS.

Failing that, I've always thought that the TNG era should have avoided the TOS crew entirely with the exception of Spock. Not writing their final chapter leaves something to the imagination and gives them a sort of immortality without actually making them immortal. Occasional references would have been more than enough for me.

I didn't know that Kirk was supposed to be in "Too Short A Season." Interesting...

I agree with your point about the TOS crew. It was sort of ridiculous that four of the seven main TOS characters met people from Picard's crew. That's stretching credibility a bit...even for "Star Trek!"

 

[Jbarney]

I've often thought it would have been cool to kill off Kirk and one of the TNG crew in Generations, then I think the death would have seemed less....scripted?

Jason

 

[Praetor]

I didn't know that Kirk was supposed to be in "Too Short A Season." Interesting...

Yep. Admiral JAMESon. Cute, eh? They should have just called him Admiral Kirk James.

 

[Piper]

I never had a problem with Kirk's death, my only quibble is that his last words should have been "It was fun," rather than "Oh my..." The former are so much more appropriate.

 

[Sky]

I never had a problem with Kirk's death, my only quibble is that his last words should have been "It was fun," rather than "Oh my..." The former are so much more appropriate.

I liked the "Oh my..."

It made me wonder "what is he seeing? what's his last thought?"

 

[cardinal biggles]

^"My God... it's full of stars!"

Oh, sorry. Wrong science-fiction movie.

 

[Too Much Fun]

Had 'Yesterday's Enterprise' been saved for the film, it might have worked with Kirk's Enterprise in place of Garrett's, but that just wasn't the case.

I was just watching that episode recently and thinking the same thing. The movie series of TNG films would have worked much better if they had taken the route of the first X-Files movie and the South Park movie and made a feature while the show was still in production and in the middle of a peak period of creativity and success. Waiting until the series was over meant waiting till they'd used up pretty much all of their good ideas after 7 seasons and umpteen episodes, resulting in mostly lackluster features. The Simpsons made the same mistake (although technically, the series isn't over yet) by waiting so long to do a movie. I wish they'd gone with their original idea of expanding the episode "Kamp Krusty" into a movie...probably would have turned out a lot better than the final product.

The same can be said about "Yesterday's Enterprise", which is immeasurably better than "Generations", and on a TV budget! Just imagine how even greater it could have been with a movie budget for its space battles and the characters and plot more fleshed out to ramp up the drama even more. The biggest question in this 'what if' scenario is what would have happened to the Tasha romance plotline. Would it be more resonant because it would be extended, or was the fact that it was so fleeting essential to its power? Also, who would be the crewman who gets involved with Tasha? It very well couldn't be one of Kirk's main crewmembers...perhaps a lower-ranked crewman created just for the episode/movie? I imagine a better known actor than Christopher Mcdonald would have been cast, which would have been a shame since the chemistry between he and Denise Crosby was so perfect.

But I digress... they didn't have to kill Kirk to pass the torch. I felt Kirk's monologue at the end of "Star Trek VI" effectively accomplished that. His appearance in a Next Generation movie didn't need to be anything more than a treat to the fans in the opportunity to see him interact with Picard and crew.

 

[Praetor]

Agreed completely, TooMuchFun. I think 'Yesterday's Enterprise' would have worked perfectly as a movie if it were made as you describe as Star Trek VI. I also agree that having Tasha fall for some 'extra' crewperson would have worked. (They might have needed a helmsman if Sulu was off on the Excelsior.) Then, if necessary, and because I enjoy it, 'The Undiscovered Country' could have been VII made in 1994 as the last chapter of the TOS movies as an immediate sequel to the events of the 'crossover' film, and then VIII in 1996 could have been a TNG only film - 'First Contact.' With the Enterprise-D still intact.

Hm, I'm not sure that would have worked. If 'Yesterday's Enterprise' had been made in place of 'TUC' I do actually have doubts about 'TUC' being made at all. Probably not, realistically. Perhaps 'TUC' could still be VI but would need some 'tweaks' to not seem so much like an epilogue for the era to allow 'Yesterday's Enterprise' to come afterward, say around TNG season five? Then no 'Generations' in 1994 and we go straight to 'First Contact.' The question is, in the 'Yesterday's Enteprise' movie, would the 'loss' of the Enterprise-A be a requirement, as it was with the C? Would fans accept the 'necessary' loss of the TOS crew to preserve the future of the TNG crew? Even if they didn't it would have surely made some hellagood drama.

Here's an interesting thought pertaining more to the original OP: would Kirk's death have been more meaningful and/or acceptable had he died saving the Federation President at the end of TUC? Personally, as much as I've stated that I'd like to think that Kirk could have had a nice retirement and adventures beyond, I think it would have worked well for me. Kirk would have essentially been 'paying' for peace with his death - a great irony given his antipathy (or bigotry, whichever you prefer) against the Klingons. In TWoK and TSFS, a major theme of the TOS films was karmic sacrifice being necessary to achieve anything - Spock to save the Enterprise, David and the Enterprise to save Spock. Kirk's sacrifice as necessary for peace seems perfectly logical to me.

 

[Elemental]

I personally thought it was perfect. Giving his life for millions of people he never knew and who would never even know he saved them. I'll never forget watching that movie for the first time in theatre.

I never had a problem with Kirk's death, my only quibble is that his last words should have been "It was fun," rather than "Oh my..." The former are so much more appropriate.

I liked the "Oh my..."

It made me wonder "what is he seeing? what's his last thought?"

IIRC, that last part was Shatner's improv. I believe he said it was supposed to be in reference to his amazement on crossing over into the afterlife. I personally like that touch. The Final Frontier indeed.

 

[WendellM]

I wouldn't consider it an empty death; he did after all choose to leave the Nexus to help Picard stop Soren, which was heroic.

I agree that it was suitably heroic. My only problem was the plot hole that's been noted for some time. Since Picard and/or Kirk could travel back in time via the Nexus, he/they could have traveled a bit further back than when Soran was almost ready to launch his weapon - say, when he's still aboard the Ent-D or at some point to uncover his conspiracy with the Klingon sisters. Much easier to stop him with a shipload of security guards available. I understand that there'd be no drama that way, but I don't like Kirk dying just for pure drama which flies in the face of reason (and it makes Picard seem a bit dim for not thinking better about the situation).

I liked the "Oh my..."

It made me wonder "what is he seeing? what's his last thought?"

Agreed - I had the same feeling: he was still exploring.

 

[Aquehonga]

STPTB&B didn't have to whack T.J. Hooker

Elgin Clark, old & withered from centuries of fighting killer giant bunnies, Agent Paris, undercover on Romulus for Mr. Phelps, & Commander Canarvin are all still alive

T.J. Hooker's not a real person anyway, so what was the point

 

[Praetor]

I wouldn't consider it an empty death; he did after all choose to leave the Nexus to help Picard stop Soren, which was heroic.

I agree that it was suitably heroic. My only problem was the plot hole that's been noted for some time. Since Picard and/or Kirk could travel back in time via the Nexus, he/they could have traveled a bit further back than when Soran was almost ready to launch his weapon - say, when he's still aboard the Ent-D or at some point to uncover his conspiracy with the Klingon sisters. Much easier to stop him with a shipload of security guards available. I understand that there'd be no drama that way, but I don't like Kirk dying just for pure drama which flies in the face of reason (and it makes Picard seem a bit dim for not thinking better about the situation).

Very well said.

 

[Bones2]

Well, knowing the temporal prime directive as he does, I'm sure Picard would have wanted to avoid going back further than necessary to stop Soren (worth a try)...

Yes it's a plot hole, but a forgivable one. I think it was a good movie and as good a death for Kirk as there could ever be.

 

[Stardate]

Having Kirk in Gen was a mistake PERIOD. Kirk and crew got good sending off in TUC and they should have left it there. They should have focus on making good TNG movie. Personally side-note i would have killed Data in Gen rather having Kirk in it. Spiner was getting to old playing ageless android.

 

[Shatmandu]

Kirk should have died of advanced old age, sitting amongst his antiques.

Alone.

Joe, rusty