Starborn Dragon
Captain
By the way, kirk hung off the ledges three different times in this movie.
Kirk the Useless
- Thread starter xvicente
- Start date
If Kirk hadn't taken out Khan's ship, even more Starfleet officers would have died. Marcus was power-mad, but he wasn't out to kill Starfleet (at least, not if they stand with him).
Let's back up the scene. Kirk was the only one in the room -- among Starfleet's most seasoned, no less -- to figure out it was a trap. And he only had a couple seconds to warn everyone, but that was enough to get a few people to scatter and presumably make it to safety. Suddenly he's useless? Was it written somewhere in TOS that Kirk was Betazoid? Or was he supposed to figure out the trap before he even entered the room?
Let's back up the scene. Kirk was the only one in the room -- among Starfleet's most seasoned, no less -- to figure out it was a trap. And he only had a couple seconds to warn everyone, but that was enough to get a few people to scatter and presumably make it to safety. Suddenly he's useless? Was it written somewhere in TOS that Kirk was Betazoid? Or was he supposed to figure out the trap before he even entered the room?
If they had invited Admiral Ackbar...
ST09:
- Kirk pieced together several disparate clues to reason that a Romulan vessel was attacking Vulcan like on the day of his birth, allowing Pike to decide to raise shields, which kept them in one piece long enough for Nero to keep them alive as an audience for his genocide. And while they couldn't save the planet, they did save the "Katric Ark" elders containing the sum of Vulcan's history and great minds of the past.
- Kirk kept the other Romulan on the drill occupied during the fight so Sulu wasn't overwhelmed, and his quick thinking and calm under pressure in contacting the Enterprise when Sulu was falling (after Kirk's chute failed, which is not his fault) allowed Chekov to save his life.
- Kirk took a beating that risked his life in order to convince Spock to do the right thing and go to save Earth, and then turned around and accepted the help of the officer who exiled and assaulted him.
- Kirk mounted a rescue mission to save Pike and steal the Jellyfish ship and the red matter from the Narada, thus saving Earth and allowing the destruction of the threat.
STID:
- Kirk saved a civilization from extinction and saved his officer at the (temporary) expense of his command.
- Kirk recognized an imminent attack and saved several lives with his warning, along with chasing off the immediate threat.
- Kirk avoided possibly provoking open war with the Klingons by not succumbing to revenge and firing torpedoes on Kronos to kill Khan.
- Kirk's infiltration mission allowed Khan to get onboard and lower Vengeance's shields so that Spock could beam torpedoes on to it, which disabled the ship as an ongoing threat to provoke war with the Klingons, even though Khan was still able to crash it into SF. So, potentially millions of lives saved versus those lost in the crash.
- Kirk got the engines restarted and saved the Enterprise, at the cost of his own life (but he got better
).
So, while some of it is an assist rather than directly doing the deed, and some were unintended consequences rather than part of a plan, I'd hardly call Kirk or his actions "useless."
- Kirk pieced together several disparate clues to reason that a Romulan vessel was attacking Vulcan like on the day of his birth, allowing Pike to decide to raise shields, which kept them in one piece long enough for Nero to keep them alive as an audience for his genocide. And while they couldn't save the planet, they did save the "Katric Ark" elders containing the sum of Vulcan's history and great minds of the past.
- Kirk kept the other Romulan on the drill occupied during the fight so Sulu wasn't overwhelmed, and his quick thinking and calm under pressure in contacting the Enterprise when Sulu was falling (after Kirk's chute failed, which is not his fault) allowed Chekov to save his life.
- Kirk took a beating that risked his life in order to convince Spock to do the right thing and go to save Earth, and then turned around and accepted the help of the officer who exiled and assaulted him.
- Kirk mounted a rescue mission to save Pike and steal the Jellyfish ship and the red matter from the Narada, thus saving Earth and allowing the destruction of the threat.
STID:
- Kirk saved a civilization from extinction and saved his officer at the (temporary) expense of his command.
- Kirk recognized an imminent attack and saved several lives with his warning, along with chasing off the immediate threat.
- Kirk avoided possibly provoking open war with the Klingons by not succumbing to revenge and firing torpedoes on Kronos to kill Khan.
- Kirk's infiltration mission allowed Khan to get onboard and lower Vengeance's shields so that Spock could beam torpedoes on to it, which disabled the ship as an ongoing threat to provoke war with the Klingons, even though Khan was still able to crash it into SF. So, potentially millions of lives saved versus those lost in the crash.
- Kirk got the engines restarted and saved the Enterprise, at the cost of his own life (but he got better
).So, while some of it is an assist rather than directly doing the deed, and some were unintended consequences rather than part of a plan, I'd hardly call Kirk or his actions "useless."
What's to say it wasn't Marcus behind that massacre? Everything that transpired there served Marcus' goals, and that would hardly happen by accident...
For Marcus to get his war, Marcus and Kirk needed to live and Pike needed to die. This happened.
For Khan to get his crew back, pretty much the same conditions applied. Marcus could perhaps die, but not before sending Kirk on this mission of red-hazed vengeance... But at some point, Khan would still call it quits, hit the escape button, and leave the survivors to sort it out. And he had probably reached that point already when Kirk threw the rifle at him.
That part of the movie still has Kirk very much in the patsy role: anything proactive he appears to do, he's actually doing a service for the villains. It doesn't really reflect badly on the hero - it just establishes the villains as formidable opponents, and sets up a trajectory for the hero to follow.
Timo Saloniemi
Re: Kirk the Useless II: into darkness
These two sentences don't belong in the same thought.
These two sentences don't belong in the same thought.
It's an awful lot of nothing.
Re: Kirk the Useless II: into darkness
Forget it. He's rollin'...
[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7vtWB4owdE[/yt]
Forget it. He's rollin'...
[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7vtWB4owdE[/yt]
Re: Kirk the Useless II: into darkness
If you truly believe that, then hit the notify button on the offending post and let the mods decide whether it's actionable or not. But don't call out people for trolling in the thread, please, or else you can wind up with an infraction yourself.
If you truly believe that, then hit the notify button on the offending post and let the mods decide whether it's actionable or not. But don't call out people for trolling in the thread, please, or else you can wind up with an infraction yourself.
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