Kirk the Useless

[Mudd]

Kirk is easily more influential upon the final resolution of Star Trek 2009 than Indiana Jones is on the climax of Raiders Of The Lost Ark.

And just think, if Indy didn't get involved at all there's a good chance that Hitler's face could have melted.

D'oh!

As far as Kirk striking out a lot with the women goes, even a .300 batting average would probably put him in the lovers hall of fame. His constant flirting reminded me of Hawkeye Pierce in "M*A*S*H" or Sam Malone in "Cheers".

Both of which struck out quite a bit, IIRC.

What people who aren't particularly good at promiscuity - if that's something one wants to succeed at - don't seem to get about people who are is that the "successful" folks can just tolerate being told "No" a lot.

 

[Pauln6]

I'll take a couple then others can pick the rest of this non-sense apart,

The green blooded hobgoblin was right ejecting him from the Enterprise.

Spock was wrong. It he takes the Enterprise to meet up with the fleet in the Laurentian system, then Earth is toast.

Actually, they were both wrong. Spock should have hotfooted it to the nearest active communications array. The fleet travelling at maximum warp is going to get to Earth faster than the Enterprise at Warp 3-4. If the fleet is on communications lockdown, then message the nearest system that can go to them at top warp.

In fact, you are flying right by a Federation outpost. Why not use their communications array and save some time? Hell, you can use hand communicators to call Qu'onos from Earth, use them instead.

Kirk's plan to go after the Narada only succeeded because of the additional information given to him by Spock Prime. Without that, both Earth and the Enterprise, would have been lost.

Spock was also wrong to waste an escape pod, which they will likely need in the upcoming fight, instead of just beaming Kirk down under sedation with a security escort. Since escape pods emit an emergency signal and Federation outposts have transporters, Kirk will be beamed to the base in mere minutes except in the unlikely event that the Federation crew are incompetent.

 

[Mudd]

Kirk's plan to go after the Narada only succeeded because of the additional information given to him by Spock Prime. Without that, both Earth and the Enterprise, would have been lost.

Which really means that if Kirk doesn't take command, Earth is destroyed.

 

[JarodRussell]

Kirk is easily more influential upon the final resolution of Star Trek 2009 than Indiana Jones is on the climax of Raiders Of The Lost Ark.

And just think, if Indy didn't get involved at all there's a good chance that Hitler's face could have melted.

Belloq was always going to take the Ark to the island. Indy didn't have any influence on that decision.

 

[Pauln6]

Kirk's plan to go after the Narada only succeeded because of the additional information given to him by Spock Prime. Without that, both Earth and the Enterprise, would have been lost.

Which really means that if Kirk doesn't take command, Earth is destroyed.

Not true. Kirk only has to take command because Spock Prime implies that he can't provide the additional information to NuSpock. Once in receipt of further information, Captain Spock may well have reached a different conclusion and agreed with Kirk.

Personally, I think that's doubtful though. They were only able to catch the Narada because it was moving at the speed of the plot. There was no logical reason for the Narada to be travelling at less than warp 4 onscreen. Either way the Earth should have been doomed based on the information the characters had at the time. Earth's only realistic hope was to get a message to someone who had a chance of beating the Narada to Earth, or at least delaying them long enough to let Enterprise catch up.

Spock Prime also makes the illogical assumption that NuKirk is the same person as Kirk Prime and will make a better captain than NuSpock despite then both having had a different education, a different upbringing, different love lives, and different epigenetic changes caused by having led their different lives. NuSpock has a higher rank and greater responsibility than Spock Prime had at his age. NuKirk has less and is rather insubordinate.

Of course everything plays out fine because that's the story. However, the characters in the story should not be given too much credit for fulfilling that story in the face of the evidence that a different course should have been better.

 

[fireproof78]

Kirk's plan to go after the Narada only succeeded because of the additional information given to him by Spock Prime. Without that, both Earth and the Enterprise, would have been lost.

Which really means that if Kirk doesn't take command, Earth is destroyed.

Not true. Kirk only has to take command because Spock Prime implies that he can't provide the additional information to NuSpock. Once in receipt of further information, Captain Spock may well have reached a different conclusion and agreed with Kirk.

Personally, I think that's doubtful though. They were only able to catch the Narada because it was moving at the speed of the plot. There was no logical reason for the Narada to be travelling at less than warp 4 onscreen. Either way the Earth should have been doomed based on the information the characters had at the time. Earth's only realistic hope was to get a message to someone who had a chance of beating the Narada to Earth, or at least delaying them long enough to let Enterprise catch up.

Spock Prime also makes the illogical assumption that NuKirk is the same person as Kirk Prime and will make a better captain than NuSpock despite then both having had a different education, a different upbringing, different love lives, and different epigenetic changes caused by having led their different lives. NuSpock has a higher rank and greater responsibility than Spock Prime had at his age. NuKirk has less and is rather insubordinate.

Of course everything plays out fine because that's the story. However, the characters in the story should not be given too much credit for fulfilling that story in the face of the evidence that a different course should have been better.

Well, Spock Prime really had no way of knowing how this Kirk would be, given he knows nothing of the changes that have occurred, so such a conclusion would be based on limited information, at best.

Secondly, and perhaps a bit of plot hole filling on my part, but we don't know the speed of the Narada. Its a mining vessel, modified, but that doesn't mean it goes faster. In addition, Nero is crazy and overconfident, to the point that I doubt he is zipping around at full speed.

I agree that better decisions could have been made, but that's based upon knowing all the facts. I'm not saying that it isn't the best decision or that it can't be made better. I'm just asking what decisions do others see that can be done?

 

[Pauln6]

Well, Spock Prime really had no way of knowing how this Kirk would be, given he knows nothing of the changes that have occurred, so such a conclusion would be based on limited information, at best.

Secondly, and perhaps a bit of plot hole filling on my part, but we don't know the speed of the Narada. Its a mining vessel, modified, but that doesn't mean it goes faster. In addition, Nero is crazy and overconfident, to the point that I doubt he is zipping around at full speed.

I agree that better decisions could have been made, but that's based upon knowing all the facts. I'm not saying that it isn't the best decision or that it can't be made better. I'm just asking what decisions do others see that can be done?

In fairness, Spock Prime has mind melded with both Kirks and so has some sense of his potential.

There are lots of unknowns about the Narada but referring to it as a 'simple mining vessel' was silly. It makes little sense that it has enough weapons on board at any one time to destroy the Klingon fleet, all the ships defending Vulcan, and the Federation rescue fleet etc. If it can make its own weapons, how can it do that (Voyager couldn't) and how do they replenish those weapons faster than Voyager's shuttles?

Further, it its top speed was warp 3, it would not have been able to reach Vulcan so quickly from the Klingon Empire.

 

[fireproof78]

Well, Spock Prime really had no way of knowing how this Kirk would be, given he knows nothing of the changes that have occurred, so such a conclusion would be based on limited information, at best.

Secondly, and perhaps a bit of plot hole filling on my part, but we don't know the speed of the Narada. Its a mining vessel, modified, but that doesn't mean it goes faster. In addition, Nero is crazy and overconfident, to the point that I doubt he is zipping around at full speed.

I agree that better decisions could have been made, but that's based upon knowing all the facts. I'm not saying that it isn't the best decision or that it can't be made better. I'm just asking what decisions do others see that can be done?

In fairness, Spock Prime has mind melded with both Kirks and so has some sense of his potential.

There are lots of unknowns about the Narada but referring to it as a 'simple mining vessel' was silly. It makes little sense that it has enough weapons on board at any one time to destroy the Klingon fleet, all the ships defending Vulcan, and the Federation rescue fleet etc. If it can make its own weapons, how can it do that (Voyager couldn't) and how do they replenish those weapons faster than Voyager's shuttles?

Further, it its top speed was warp 3, it would not have been able to reach Vulcan so quickly from the Klingon Empire.

Well, Nero called it a simple mining vessel, so I just used his terminology

I didn't say that Narada's top speed was Warp 3. I simply stated the fact that we do not know the Narada's top speed. Also, and my greater point, is that Nero may not have been in a hurry to get to Earth, being the overconfident villain that he is (also, an emotionally unstable one).

Finally, the Narada, as a mining vessel, is probably designed to operate in deep space, away from support, for long periods of time. The ability to manufacture its own supplies, including weapons (explosives for mining) is a practical extension of its function. Voyager, in comparison, is more of a science vessel, and not intended for long operations all by itself. Also, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that explosives are easier to fabricate than a shuttlecraft.

 

[Pauln6]

Well, Spock Prime really had no way of knowing how this Kirk would be, given he knows nothing of the changes that have occurred, so such a conclusion would be based on limited information, at best.

Secondly, and perhaps a bit of plot hole filling on my part, but we don't know the speed of the Narada. Its a mining vessel, modified, but that doesn't mean it goes faster. In addition, Nero is crazy and overconfident, to the point that I doubt he is zipping around at full speed.

I agree that better decisions could have been made, but that's based upon knowing all the facts. I'm not saying that it isn't the best decision or that it can't be made better. I'm just asking what decisions do others see that can be done?

In fairness, Spock Prime has mind melded with both Kirks and so has some sense of his potential.

There are lots of unknowns about the Narada but referring to it as a 'simple mining vessel' was silly. It makes little sense that it has enough weapons on board at any one time to destroy the Klingon fleet, all the ships defending Vulcan, and the Federation rescue fleet etc. If it can make its own weapons, how can it do that (Voyager couldn't) and how do they replenish those weapons faster than Voyager's shuttles?

Further, it its top speed was warp 3, it would not have been able to reach Vulcan so quickly from the Klingon Empire.

Well, Nero called it a simple mining vessel, so I just used his terminology

I didn't say that Narada's top speed was Warp 3. I simply stated the fact that we do not know the Narada's top speed. Also, and my greater point, is that Nero may not have been in a hurry to get to Earth, being the overconfident villain that he is (also, an emotionally unstable one).

Finally, the Narada, as a mining vessel, is probably designed to operate in deep space, away from support, for long periods of time. The ability to manufacture its own supplies, including weapons (explosives for mining) is a practical extension of its function. Voyager, in comparison, is more of a science vessel, and not intended for long operations all by itself. Also, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that explosives are easier to fabricate than a shuttlecraft.

Ha ha. Yes we can make assumptions. However, it doesn't automatically follow that just because the characters made those assumptions and they turned out to be right that their decisions were sensible based on the information they actually had.

Another example is STiD where Kirk tries to fix the ship alone. Troi failed her command test for trying the same thing. Spock in TWoK was qualified, knew roughly what was was wrong, and was more resistant to radiation poisoning. NuKirk is just flying blind and taking a gamble.

 

[BillJ]

Another example is STiD where Kirk tries to fix the ship alone. Troi failed her command test for trying the same thing. Spock in TWoK was qualified, knew roughly what was was wrong, and was more resistant to radiation poisoning. NuKirk is just flying blind and taking a gamble.

Troi failed her command test because she hesitated to send someone to their death. Kirk seemed to know well enough what to do when Scott says the housing is misaligned. Since he goes right to the trouble spot and fixes it.

Kirk did have three years at the Academy, where I'm sure there are basic engineering courses for perspective starship personnel, and spent another year in command of the Enterprise. I'm sure he picked up some operational and engineering knowledge there as well.

 

[Pauln6]

Troi failed her command test because she hesitated to send someone to their death. Kirk seemed to know well enough what to do when Scott says the housing is misaligned. Since he goes right to the trouble spot and fixes it.

Kirk did have three years at the Academy, where I'm sure there are basic engineering courses for perspective starship personnel, and spent another year in command of the Enterprise. I'm sure he picked up some operational and engineering knowledge there as well.

Not quite true. She failed because she didn't send someone who was qualified to fix the problem. Personally, I would still have failed her because she did not consider whether someone else of a different species or Data could have still carried out the task without dying.

Kirk and Troi are both officers. Neither is an engineer. They will both have basic training. Kirk's basic training would be fresher in his mind. Beyond that, he should be sending someone qualified to fix the problem. There are a lot of engineers on the ship. It's a failure of leadership that the right people are not in the right place at the right time.

It's been a while since I've seen the movie. If Scotty told him what the problem was before he went in then that's not so bad, although going in with no equipment is a bit daft. What's dafter is that they have a ship that leaks radiation and they don't have robotic drones on hand in the event of this problem. We have those now.

 

[xvicente]

Kirk the Useless II: into darkness

Ok, I watched some of STID yesterday.

Starfleet was bombed, the Starfleet officers met, Harrison attacked.

What did Kirk do? exactly: nothing. AGAIN

Sure, he grabbed a rifle and managed to down the helicopter-ish.

So what? Harrisson still killed everyone he went there to kill, Marcus still got the excuse he wanted, Harrison warp-transported exactly to where he was going to anyway.

In short, in Kirk were somewhere else drinking lemonade everything would be the same.

(later Scotty comes with a piece of the helicopter that told where Harrison went, but Marcus would know that)

Man, who write these things?

 

[BillJ]

Re: Kirk the Useless II: into darkness

Man, who write these things?

People that get paid a lot of money and sleep with many beautiful people. Jealous?

 

[Mudd]

Re: Kirk the Useless II: into darkness

There's really no point in replying to a critique of the story logic of anything when the critique's explicitly premised on "I watched part of it." xvicente's evaluations of these movies are inattentive, to put it politely.

And yet, now we have two topics based on nothing at all.

 

[xvicente]

Re: Kirk the Useless II: into darkness

There's really no point in replying to a critique of the story logic of anything when the critique's explicitly premised on "I watched part of it." xvicente's evaluations of these movies are inattentive, to put it politely.

And yet, now we have two topics based on nothing at all.

At this point I'd like to point out that I did watch the movies in their entirety, but I prefer (or have time only) to rewatch in sessions. I found (not without surprise) this way is notable how little some of the main characters' actions seem to effect the plot of the movie(s) considering the duration of the scenes.

IMHO it's a characteristic of current moviemaking techniques, given that older movies don't give that impression.

 

[Smellmet]

Re: Kirk the Useless II: into darkness

Sod it, I'll play. Star Trek into Darkness had a very clear character arc for Kirk in so much that he was arrogant and felt almost invincible, but was lacking the humanity and humility to become the Kirk we all know and love from the Prime adventures.

Therefore the events of Into Darkness shows Kirk getting exposed for what he was - a cocky asshole who hadn't fully realised his potential as captain of the USS Enterprise and the film gave him a harsh lesson, resulting in him ultimately giving his life for his crew (even though it was short lived). This is why you see Kirk generally floundering in this movie.

The first movie changed the timeline then brought the crew together under different circumstances, the second one he finally proves his mettle after his all-too-quick move through the ranks. And some drone warfare shit.

Next.

 

[M'Sharak]

Re: Kirk the Useless II: into darkness

Ok, I watched some of STID yesterday.

Starfleet was bombed, the Starfleet officers met, Harrison attacked.

What did Kirk do? exactly: nothing. AGAIN

Sure, he grabbed a rifle and managed to down the helicopter-ish.

So what? Harrisson still killed everyone he went there to kill, Marcus still got the excuse he wanted, Harrison warp-transported exactly to where he was going to anyway.

In short, in Kirk were somewhere else drinking lemonade everything would be the same.

(later Scotty comes with a piece of the helicopter that told where Harrison went, but Marcus would know that)

Man, who write these things?

This was not a topic which was begging for a second thread.

Merging this with the first thread, just in case.

 

[urbandefault]

In both films, Kirk runs to face the enemy even when the odds are against him. Even when others would have him retreat.

That's not uselessness, that's what made James T. Kirk the captain we came to know.

 

[fireproof78]

Re: Kirk the Useless II: into darkness

What did Kirk do? exactly: nothing. AGAIN

Sure, he grabbed a rifle and managed to down the helicopter-ish.

These two phrases are a bit contradictory. He did something even if it was not effective. If we go by that argument, Kirk and company did nothing in "Friday's Child" as the Capellan leader was assassinated and did not prevent his death.

Now, if I can go on to say, "But, Kirk did save the wife of the leader and an unborn child," then the discussion can continue.

And you can find many different situations were the heroes fail to do the best action even though they acted.

Kirk is hardly useless. And I'm still trying to figure out what other action is being recommended here.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Re: Kirk the Useless II: into darkness

What did Kirk do? exactly: nothing. AGAIN

Sure, he grabbed a rifle and managed to down the helicopter-ish.

These two phrases are a bit contradictory. He did something even if it was not effective. If we go by that argument, Kirk and company did nothing in "Friday's Child" as the Capellan leader was assassinated and did not prevent his death.

Now, if I can go on to say, "But, Kirk did save the wife of the leader and an unborn child," then the discussion can continue.

And you can find many different situations were the heroes fail to do the best action even though they acted.

Kirk is hardly useless. And I'm still trying to figure out what other action is being recommended here.

Yeah, most films don't have their heroes be 100% effective at everything they do. Kinda makes for a boring film.