Kirk’s Comment in Elaan of Troyius

[Nyotarules]

I miss the days when you could speak your mind without having to concern yourself if someone was going to be offended, no matter how inoffense your comments were.

Those days are still here, speak your truth! You have the right to be polite to your fellow person! Its the right to be rude and obnoxious that is challenged, but its these qualities some people still want to use.
There are valid reasons why I do not want people calling me a black bastard, (e.g folks moaning why they cannot use the N word when other folks use it, gets me suspicious, why would you want to call someone such a nasty negative word, no matter who else does it?) even if I have dark skin and my parents were not married to each other. But YMMV.
Transfer McCoy's attitude to Spock to the present day and he would either be a top ranking Admiral or drummed out of the service.

 

[T'Bonz]

If stuff like that is said today, I'd be upset about it.

In the 1960s? That's how the times were. The rational thing is to just roll one's eyes and skip past that part and pretend Kirk didn't say that.

 

[Phaser Two]

If stuff like that is said today, I'd be upset about it.

In the 1960s? That's how the times were. The rational thing is to just roll one's eyes and skip past that part and pretend Kirk didn't say that.

Sure. Or retcon it that he was making a dumb joke because he was frustrated, which is what I prefer.

 

[Phaser Two]

Now back to the episode if I may (pretty please?) - I figured out why I liked Spock's characterization in this one so much. He acts like a soldier (expertly tracking the enemy vessel, questioning Kirk about whether Elaan should be on the bridge, assisting Scotty with the raw dilithium, detecting Kryton's transmission at the same time Uhura does, and stunning the big goons), and no one questions his command skills or abilities or subjects him to xenophobia or anything else. Not even McCoy. The Klingons may bring that out in Spock - he was also quite enjoyable in Errand of Mercy in much the same way.

I'm not saying that Spock needed to act like a military officer all the time as opposed to a scientist, an explorer, Kirk's friend, etc. But with dissatisfying characterizations of his command adventures like Galileo Seven and That Which Survives out there, this was a breath of fresh air.

 

[Henoch]

I'm not saying that Spock needed to act like a military officer all the time as opposed to a scientist, an explorer, Kirk's friend, etc. But with dissatisfying characterizations of his command adventures like Galileo Seven and That Which Survives out there, this was a breath of fresh air.

I thought Spock was portrayed okay in That Which Survives; but, The Tholian Web was a trashing. He got some grief in The Gamesters of Triskelion, but eventually he got his way. Has there been a thread on "Spock's in Charge", yet?

 

[Phaser Two]

I thought Spock was portrayed okay in That Which Survives; but, The Tholian Web was a trashing. He got some grief in The Gamesters of Triskelion, but eventually he got his way. Has there been a thread on "Spock's in Charge", yet?

Not to my knowledge. Start one up. Incidentally I think the only person who trashed him in TTW was (who else) McCoy. Everyone else seemed to be pretty cool with him taking over, while worried about Kirk, of course.

 

[Tenacity]

It's not some sort of insidious mind-control. It's progress

No you're wrong, it is a type of manipulation and control. It's one segment of society pushing their ideas as to what's "agreed upon" on the rest of society. Whether the rest of society agrees with it is apparently irrelevant.

which is what Star Trek is supposed to be about

Trek is supposed to be about action-adventure, and pew-pew, and breaking the rules to do the right thing, and occasionally listening to someone like Picard sounding like a pompous goof-ball

 

[Mytran]

Would the equivalent of "no true Scotsman" be "no true Trek fan", do you suppose?

 

[1001001]

It's true that the overlords of society today have ruined everything! You cannot say a word today about anything without offending someone somewhere!!! Kirk's comments back in the sixties were not offensive then and have only been made that way today due to people trying to control the thoughts and minds of it's citizens!
JB

I miss the days when you could speak your mind without having to concern yourself if someone was going to be offended, no matter how inoffense your comments were.

No you're wrong, it is a type of manipulation and control. It's one segment of society pushing their ideas as to what's "agreed upon" on the rest of society. Whether the rest of society agrees with it is apparently irrelevant.

Oh, you poor things!

You still have every right to say anything you want. It's just that the oppressed aren't taking it quietly anymore. How dare they!

Kirk's comment, while obviously sexist, doesn't upset me. It was a product of the time. No big deal.

But if someone thinks those were the "good old days" that we need to return to, then perhaps they've missed the whole point of the franchise.

 

[Phaser Two]

No you're wrong, it is a type of manipulation and control. It's one segment of society pushing their ideas as to what's "agreed upon" on the rest of society. Whether the rest of society agrees with it is apparently irrelevant. Trek is supposed to be about action-adventure, and pew-pew, and breaking the rules to do the right thing, and occasionally listening to someone like Picard sounding like a pompous goof-ball

Ah. Hm. I see. I wish to disassociate myself from the Rear Admiral's highlighted remarks.

 

[Ovation]

No you're wrong, it is a type of manipulation and control. It's one segment of society pushing their ideas as to what's "agreed upon" on the rest of society. Whether the rest of society agrees with it is apparently irrelevant.

Um...no.

 

[Jedi_Master]

I would comment but the Mind Control Masters have forbidden me from speaking on this matter.

 

[Nyotarules]

No you're wrong, it is a type of manipulation and control. It's one segment of society pushing their ideas as to what's "agreed upon" on the rest of society. Whether the rest of society agrees with it is apparently irrelevant. Trek is supposed to be about action-adventure, and pew-pew, and breaking the rules to do the right thing, and occasionally listening to someone like Picard sounding like a pompous goof-ball

If manipulation and control = when you abuse people said people will push back and insist on dealing with your entitled ass then I am all for manipulation and control.

 

[BillJ]

But if someone thinks those were the "good old days" that we need to return to, then perhaps they've missed the whole point of the franchise.

Winner!

 

[The Lensman]

I miss the days when you could speak your mind without having to concern yourself if someone was going to be offended, no matter how inoffense your comments were.

No offense (see what I did there?), but *my* experience has been that the people who complain the loudest about OTHERS being offended are the most easily offended. More often than not, they tend to be the same people, with the same political and religious beliefs. It is fucking hilarious that they actually think they're not easily offended. It's comical watching them try to redefine their own easily offended sensibilities as something other than them being easily offended. It's like watching someone trying to redefine their own act of farting as not farting.....because that's something *others* do, not them.

How else can they delude themselves that they're somehow "better", "tougher" or "superior" to others if they have to face the fact that they're absolutely no different?

It's one segment of society pushing their ideas as to what's "agreed upon" on the rest of society. Whether the rest of society agrees with it is apparently irrelevant.

Clearly you weren't alive in the 20th century because that attitude was the attitude of the christian conservatives who thought they had the right to tell the rest of us what to believe, how to act, who to love, what was appropriate to watch, read or listen to. See the Hayes Code, Seduction Of The Innocent, Blue Laws, all the book and record burnings, laws against "sodomy", laws that prohibit sex toys, laws against atheists in public office, the prudish t.v. censors who thought Barbara Eden showing her belly button was just too much for our society to handle. That was one segment of society dominating everyone else in a manner far more than anything any segment of society is doing today.

But yeah, let's go back to that.

Fuck that.

But if someone thinks those were the "good old days" that we need to return to, then perhaps they've missed the whole point of the franchise.

If someone thinks those were the good old days that we need to return to, then they absolutely missed the whole fucking point of the franchise.

Fixed that for you

We now return to your Star Trek thread already in progress.....

 

[Marsden]

Now back to the episode if I may (pretty please?) - I figured out why I liked Spock's characterization in this one so much. He acts like a soldier (expertly tracking the enemy vessel, questioning Kirk about whether Elaan should be on the bridge, assisting Scotty with the raw dilithium, detecting Kryton's transmission at the same time Uhura does, and stunning the big goons), and no one questions his command skills or abilities or subjects him to xenophobia or anything else. Not even McCoy. The Klingons may bring that out in Spock - he was also quite enjoyable in Errand of Mercy in much the same way.

I'm not saying that Spock needed to act like a military officer all the time as opposed to a scientist, an explorer, Kirk's friend, etc. But with dissatisfying characterizations of his command adventures like Galileo Seven and That Which Survives out there, this was a breath of fresh air.

I also thought it was one of the best ship to ship battles in the 3 seasons, the Klingon banging away at the Enterprise's shield, Kirk's maneuvers to minimize the damage, Sulu and Spock were good during the battle, too.

I have a question, so the necklace was traditional on Troyus, the ambassador brought it, but Elaan says they are common stones, does she recognize them from being on Elas too or does she know they are common on Troyus? And how for that second part, they've been at war so I doubt it was a visit, unless it was part of an invasion force? Also, why are they in a special bridal necklace if they are common? Wasn't it supposed to be valuable? That part always confused me a little, like her comments forgot it's two separate planets and not two nations on one planet, although the "common stones" may be common to both worlds because of the nature of the system's formation.

 

[ZapBrannigan]

I have a question, so the necklace was traditional on Troyus, the ambassador brought it, but Elaan says they are common stones, does she recognize them from being on Elas too or does she know they are common on Troyus? And how for that second part, they've been at war so I doubt it was a visit, unless it was part of an invasion force? Also, why are they in a special bridal necklace if they are common? Wasn't it supposed to be valuable? That part always confused me a little, like her comments forgot it's two separate planets and not two nations on one planet, although the "common stones" may be common to both worlds because of the nature of the system's formation.

That's what I'd say: two habitable planets, obviously both in the Goldilocks Zone, that are similar enough that both environments evolved humanoids, would probably have similar geology. The same rock chemistry.

As to why such a high-level diplomatic gift would be made with common stones, that's a little harder.

 

[Henoch]

As to why such a high-level diplomatic gift would be made with common stones, that's a little harder.

I guess the stones are much like diamonds on Earth. I believe the Troyians valued them similarly as we value diamonds, but because they are as-hard or harder than diamonds, they are uncut. There may be a lot of smaller ones, but big ones such as in the necklace would be very rare. Think Hope Diamond or Crown Jewels for rarity. I think Elaan calls them "common" probably because they actually look like common rock/crystal. In addition, they are not cut nor polished to make them sparkle.

 

[Phaser Two]

I also thought it was one of the best ship to ship battles in the 3 seasons, the Klingon banging away at the Enterprise's shield, Kirk's maneuvers to minimize the damage, Sulu and Spock were good during the battle, too.

They were indeed. It was a very, very good space battle; you're right.

I have a question, so the necklace was traditional on Troyus, the ambassador brought it, but Elaan says they are common stones, does she recognize them from being on Elas too or does she know they are common on Troyus? And how for that second part, they've been at war so I doubt it was a visit, unless it was part of an invasion force? Also, why are they in a special bridal necklace if they are common? Wasn't it supposed to be valuable? That part always confused me a little, like her comments forgot it's two separate planets and not two nations on one planet, although the "common stones" may be common to both worlds because of the nature of the system's formation.

Good question. Henoch and Zap already covered this - and isn't it nice to be talking about the episode, BTW? - but Elaan says that the stones are supposed to bring good luck, and Petri refers to them as the most prized of royal jewels. So they weren't valuable to the Troyians because of their scarcity; they were valuable because of their supposed luck-giving properties. And perhaps the necklace itself had been worn by many Troyians in the past, and was ancient or something, giving it a valuable history. There's a hint of superstition and lore in the Tellun star system's culture, so that seems to fit.

As for the two separate planets I think you answered it right - although nice catch because I never thought of it - when you said that the two planets may share similar mineralogical or geological properties.

 

[Noname Given]

You’re correct. That Kirk line just didn’t sit well with me, but I really wanted to know what other TOS fans thought about it.

I've always thought it was a funny joke myself, much like the exchange between NOMAD and Kirk from TOPS S2 - "The Changeling":
http://www.chakoteya.net/StarTrek/37.htm

KIRK: Sickbay. What did you do to her?

NOMAD: That unit is defective. Its thinking is chaotic. Absorbing it unsettled me.

SPOCK: That unit is a woman.

NOMAD: A mass of conflicting impulses.

in the end, remember Star Trek was NEVER meant to be taken 100% seriously in any of it's incarnations, past or present. It's primary function is ENTERTAINMENT. All this constant B.S. that GR somehow intended 'Star Trek' in any form to ALWAYS be 100% "progressive social commentary" is utter garbage, and was done to get press and try and get more money out of the franchise for as long as possible.

Learn how to take a joke, and quit over analyzing everything, or thinking every person involved in the production was some progressive, always looking to the future and wanting to make their statement. Most were working TV writers that were just trying to make a living and ENTERTAIN people (occasionally making them chuckle.

I love the humor in TOS. The Kirk line being discussed here, and the scene I quoted above.

(TNG could have used some actual funny humor as well, but the closest they ever came was Marina Sirtis/Deanna Troi's 'Drunk' scene with Johnathan Frakes/William Riker in the feature film "Star Trek: First Contact". <--- That was the ONLY scene that came close to the good humor that TOS displayed during its TV run BECAUSE it didn't always take itself so $#@!$ seriously.)