Kirk’s Comment in Elaan of Troyius

Discussion in 'Star Trek - The Original & Animated Series' started by Spock's Barber, Jun 5, 2019.

  1. Spock's Barber

    Spock's Barber Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2014
    Location:
    Standing Next To Kirk
    I think Shatner should have voiced his objections (if he had any?) about Kirk’s questionable comment to Fred Freiberger, just like Nimoy did about the change in the Spock character in season 3.
     
  2. Commishsleer

    Commishsleer Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2013
    Location:
    Last place in Australia to get the NBN
    Throw her in the brig, Not slap her around. A policeman is not allowed to slap a woman to avoid putting her in the cells.

    Apparently (according to Elaan) she was in her rights to stab him. Kirk doesn't know that she wasn't according to the laws of her planet. And perhaps Kirk doesn't care. He has to maintain order on his own ship.

    I can't remember Kirk teaching a male opponent manners in a condescending way. Perhaps men don't need manners? :lol:

    Kirk rarely spat on his women opponents. Maybe swapped spit.
     
  3. Armus

    Armus Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2003
    Location:
    Massachusetts, USA
    This statement makes it hard for me to take your moral indignation seriously.
     
    Vger23 and feek61 like this.
  4. mos6507

    mos6507 Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2010
    Well, she did live up to the stereotype, didn't she? Remember that it's based on Taming of the Shrew which is considered great literature and has withstood all sorts of cultural changes. At some point it might be better to consider that there's some truth to the statement, however hyperbolic, than to think that all past history (including Shakespeare) is somehow evil and offers incorrect insights into human nature.
     
    Armus and Spock's Barber like this.
  5. Steven P Bastien

    Steven P Bastien Captain Captain

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2018
    Location:
    3 steps ahead of where I was 2 seconds ago
    First, we should say that, at least by our modern standards, some things from past history (not all) are evil and wrong. But, that aside, my opinion is that this statement by Kirk (even though he intends it as a joke between him and a male friend, and is careful to not let a woman hear him) is not offering insight into human nature. At best it is giving insight into the fact that men and women are different in some ways. Men and women both use logic and we both use intuition and we both do stupid things that fly in the face of logic and good judgement. One book that describes how illogical we can all be is "Inevitable Illusions, how mistakes in reason rule our minds". We are pre-wired to behave in certain ways in certain situations, and it takes good training to force ourselves to use logic consistently in all aspects of real life (assuming we even want to do that), and even then we are likely to slip up sometimes.

    (Another book on this subject is: "How we know what isn't so; The Fallibility of Human Reason in Everyday Life" )
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2019
    Armus likes this.
  6. BK613

    BK613 Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2008
    Location:
    West of the Moon, East of the Sun
    Context is important. I don't see the line commenting on women, per se, but Spock's emotional blind spot.
    SPOCK: Captain, your analysis of the situation was flawless, anticipating that she would deny you admittance. However, the logic by which you arrived at your conclusion escapes me.
    KIRK: Mister Spock, the women on your planet are logical. That's the only planet in this galaxy that can make that claim.

    which mirrors what McCoy says in Galileo Seven:
    MCCOY: Mister Spock, respect is a rational process. Did it ever occur to you they might react emotionally, with anger?
    SPOCK: Doctor, I am not responsible for their unpredictability.
    MCCOY: They were perfectly predictable to anyone with feeling.

    Still, the line if written today today it would replace "women" with "people" or "men and women." And doing so really doesn't change anything.
     
    Marsden likes this.
  7. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2003
    ...Indeed, any statement begining with either "Women..." or "Men..." is but one step removed from statements starting with "People...", and of rather dubious statistical worth unless it concerns the most general of things. Which is why such statements traditionally haven't been the topic of hot debate, but of good-natured chuckling. Or of mock indignation, depending. Taking them at face value really isn't worth the time.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  8. Commishsleer

    Commishsleer Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2013
    Location:
    Last place in Australia to get the NBN
    So 'Taming of the Shrew' is so iconic it could be produced today and most women (not me of course) would be happy with it???
    Of course there's some truth to the idea that only a small fraction of women in the universe can be logical. How could anyone be offended by such an idea?
    And in Shakespeare time many women were oppressed and had little rights and Shakespeare was just reflecting the times he was living in. I think we now know better, just as we now know slavery, racism, homophobia is wrong. Fathers no longer "own" their daughters and don't need to marry them off to avoid having to support them all their lives.

    On Vulcan, they can fight to the death at a wedding, why does every culture have to conform to Earth rules. In Friday's child the natives killed that Security dude for just raising his gun to a friend of the Akaar or something.

    And sure Elaan is obnoxious by Earth standards and as Kirk points out she probably had some way of getting out of the marriage unlike many women forced into arranged marriages today. Still I can't see an story like this being made made today despite taming shrews being classic.
     
  9. johnnybear

    johnnybear Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2014
    The brain washing of today's era is working I see!
    JB
     
    Noname Given and Tenacity like this.
  10. Spock's Barber

    Spock's Barber Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2014
    Location:
    Standing Next To Kirk
    This is me on my way to work. :eek:

    [​IMG]
     
    johnnybear likes this.
  11. Nerys Myk

    Nerys Myk Kang, now with ridges Premium Member

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2001
    Location:
    House of Kang
    So you're only there physically? Who has the remote?
     
    Spock's Barber likes this.
  12. johnnybear

    johnnybear Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2014
    I still retain my own unfettered mind I'm glad to say! :techman:
    JB
     
    Spock's Barber likes this.
  13. Spock's Barber

    Spock's Barber Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2014
    Location:
    Standing Next To Kirk
    My wife. She programs me to obey. :eek:
     
  14. Spock's Barber

    Spock's Barber Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2014
    Location:
    Standing Next To Kirk
    ....and I make a click-click-click sound when I walk.
     
    johnnybear likes this.
  15. feek61

    feek61 Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2011
    Location:
    In the Sunshine!
    Hey wait, I thought women wanted to be treated equally!!!! If a man hit Kirk you can bet he would hit him back (not that I would ever condone hitting a woman).
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2019
  16. BillJ

    BillJ History’s Greatest Monster Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2001
    Location:
    Covington, Ky. USA
    Not sure I see a problem with discussing where Trek made its mistakes? With new material being made, I imagine new people are being exposed to TOS.

    Though it now seems like TOS is the racist uncle that we keep trying to keep quiet as to not offend our new friends.
     
    PiotrB, Greg Cox and Spock's Barber like this.
  17. Vger23

    Vger23 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2014
    Location:
    New England
    Oh, I don't think it's a problem at all. And the OP is, by my measure, a huge TOS fan, so I don't think there was any ill-intent.

    I just admittedly get defensive when people (in general, not anyone specific) hold a 52-year old television show accountable to modern day social (or even technical) standards. Particularly when the core of that show was actually amazingly progressive in some ways (not all) for its time. I was simply trying to proactively head-off the uninitiated from developing the attitudes and perceptions of how backward and unenlightened Kirk and company were. ;)
     
    Spock's Barber likes this.
  18. Spock's Barber

    Spock's Barber Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2014
    Location:
    Standing Next To Kirk
    Well said. You’re promoted one step in rank, two steps in the mirror universe. ;)
     
    Vger23 likes this.
  19. Vger23

    Vger23 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2014
    Location:
    New England
    You're reduced two steps in rank. Return to post.

    [​IMG]
    :lol:
     
    Spock's Barber likes this.
  20. Spock's Barber

    Spock's Barber Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2014
    Location:
    Standing Next To Kirk
    You’re correct. That Kirk line just didn’t sit well with me, but I really wanted to know what other TOS fans thought about it.
     
    Vger23 likes this.