Kirk’s Comment in Elaan of Troyius

Discussion in 'Star Trek - The Original & Animated Series' started by Spock's Barber, Jun 5, 2019.

  1. Spock's Barber

    Spock's Barber Commodore Commodore

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    In Elaan of Troyius, Kirk makes a comment to Spock...

    “Mr. Spock, the women on your planet are logical. That’s the only planet in this galaxy that can make that claim.”

    Even when I first watched this episode many years, I wondered if that was an appropriate line in the script. Your thoughts?
     
  2. Steven P Bastien

    Steven P Bastien Captain Captain

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    As a public service announcement, I suggest that only women answer this question.
     
  3. Spock's Barber

    Spock's Barber Commodore Commodore

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    No worries here. I just thought Kirk kind of stuck his foot in his mouth, courtesy of writer John Meredyth Lucas. Kirk...you’re sleeping on the couch for a month.
     
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  4. Armus

    Armus Commodore Commodore

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    I don't remember the context of the episode but I'm sure Kirk would only say such a remark after a particularly trying encounter with Elaan. It's human nature to make such sweeping generalizations in order to simplify reality.
     
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  5. Spock's Barber

    Spock's Barber Commodore Commodore

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    Agreed. Kirk was frustrated in having to deal with Elaan after Petri was put out of action.
     
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  6. Maurice

    Maurice Vice Admiral Premium Member

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    There are lots of lines that smack of that attitude throughout the show. "A mass of conflicting impulses," etc.
     
  7. Spock's Barber

    Spock's Barber Commodore Commodore

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    Hmmmm. That’s another JM Lucas script. Along with That Which Survives, where Spock is particularly snotty to Uhura and Radha.
     
  8. feek61

    feek61 Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I took it as a "tongue-in-cheek" comment not to be taken literally. Of course people read into these comments what they will.
     
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  9. Vger23

    Vger23 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Precisely.




    It's been a pattern on here lately to pick apart throw away lines like this from a 50+ year old television show like we're uncovering some agenda or something.

    Newsflash: It was a frigging half-century ago. it's a product of its time, and sexism, racism, social norms etc were all viewed very differently back then. Just like things in 1967 were very different from 1917. Yes it could be could be considered offensive today. It wasn't made today, though. So yeah, it's bound to be a little different.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2019
  10. Steven P Bastien

    Steven P Bastien Captain Captain

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    One defense that Kirk can make to keep him from having to sleep on the couch is that he can claim that the following statement would have been made if he were charged with teaching a Troyian man.

    “Mr. Spock, the men on your planet are logical. That’s the only planet in this galaxy that can make that claim.”

    But, my experience is that such a defense usually does not work and once foot is inserted, it is not easily extracted.
     
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  11. TREK_GOD_1

    TREK_GOD_1 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    ^ Exactly.
     
  12. Dukhat

    Dukhat Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Someone in TOS made a sexist remark about a woman? Say it ain't so!
     
  13. Spock's Barber

    Spock's Barber Commodore Commodore

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    Well, I was going to post a thread asking “How many times did Spock say ‘Fascinating’?,but that would have died a quick death. :p
     
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  14. johnnybear

    johnnybear Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Boy would it!!! :vulcan:
    JB
     
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  15. Spock's Barber

    Spock's Barber Commodore Commodore

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    Fascinating. :nyah:
     
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  16. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Naturally, only those of planet Vulcan are entitled to making claims about those of planet Vulcan - anything else would be cultural appropriation. So Kirk is 100% (politically) correct here.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
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  17. Commishsleer

    Commishsleer Commodore Commodore

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    Unlike a lot of people I find this episode highly sexist with its camera sweeps of Elaans body and Kirk's slapping Elaan reeks of domestic abuse. I know she hit first but she's from a different culture. Kirk should be better than that.

    Then there's the Taming of the Shrew theme which is highly misogynistic. Why shouldn't Elaan be angry at a forced marriage?

    In another thread someone was saying Pike was misogynistic but they should look at Kirk in this episode.
     
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  18. Armus

    Armus Commodore Commodore

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    Didn't Elaan stab and try to murder the ambassador in this episode? Were you offended by that? She should have been thrown in the brig but she is treated like a Faberge Egg.
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2019
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  19. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I guess Kirk is an egalitarian loather: he doesn't refrain from showing his disgust just because an opponent happens to be female.

    This doesn't cover his catchall statement that is the original topic of this thread, though. And it would be interesting if the two issues could be kept separate, allowing Kirk to spit on male and female villains alike without this affecting our evaluation of how misogynist he was exactly. Because, you know, it shouldn't...

    Timo Saloniemi
     
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  20. Steven P Bastien

    Steven P Bastien Captain Captain

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    Diplomatic immunity is a get out of jail free card. But, Kirk should have implemented a "no weapons allowed" policy. The ambassador said he should not have gone in unarmed, but nooooo, he should not have gone in with her armed. Did he think reporting back that he had killed Elaan in self defense would be good for interplanetary peace? (Not to mention her guards would have cut him to pieces afterwards) Elaan would have liked nothing better than provoking a war, hence don't give her the tools to do it with.
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2019
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