Kira got beat up!
- Thread starter Flying Spaghetti Monster
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While I can't remember the episode's title, I sure of what I was describing.
Are you saying Kira wasn't pregnant at the time, or that she never fought and defeated a Klingon once ?
When she fought Klingons, she was not pregnant, and when you consider she was taken out (unlike Sisko or Dax), her performance was hardly mythic.
OTOH, she sucker-punched a Bajoran security guard in season 5 when pregnant--impressive, but not really indicative of how she would do in a fight.
OTOH, she sucker-punched a Bajoran security guard in season 5 when pregnant--impressive, but not really indicative of how she would do in a fight.
So what?
Now, if she'd been knocked up by a girl .... oh wait, they did that, with Keiko.
Now, if she'd been knocked up by a girl .... oh wait, they did that, with Keiko.
Is there a reason the thread title needs to have "by a girl" in it? Last I checked her opponent was a woman, not a girl. I have a hard time believing a similar thread regarding one of the male characters getting beaten by a full grown man would be titled "Kirk got beat up! (by a boy)"
EDIT: Upon further reflection I have decided to edit the thread title. It is completely unnecessary to the conversation and demeaning to woman. It’s akin to using “you throw like a girl” as an insult, as though women are incapable of throwing a ball correctly.
EDIT: Upon further reflection I have decided to edit the thread title. It is completely unnecessary to the conversation and demeaning to woman. It’s akin to using “you throw like a girl” as an insult, as though women are incapable of throwing a ball correctly.
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The point was Kira only had 1 fight with a female in the entire show and she got her ass kicked. But when she fights men, she always wins.
No. There is no point.
The irony is that Dax fought more men in melee more times on more episodes than Kira, and as a consequence, defeated more of them. He'll, Dax fought at her own bachelorette party. If we were to add sex with Worf to the list ...
This would be different were the scene played up as Kira indeed being defeated by an opponent who initially looked harmless - a trope in "Die Hard" copies like this. But the opponent here is not painted as a pushover before the fight scene: she's assertive from the get-go, wears badass pseudo-leather, and generally plays the part of a villain who would be expected to fall from a pedestal when tackling a hero. And the surprise is that she's the real deal after all.
In the trope scene, the "girl" thing would feel quite appropriate, as it's in the intended spirit: the "girl" doesn't deserve our sympathies, and is faking the "girl" bit anyway, naughty of her. Insults should be the very minimum of things we would be throwing at her.
In this reversal of the trope (or is it a double reversal of an even more common trope?), we get caught in second-guessing ourselves on the issue of double reversals, ironies and whatnot.
But yes, I could well see Kirk getting beaten up by a boy, for dramatic effect (Charlie Evans, anybody?). Or, technically, him beating up a boy. While this would serve a less obvious dramatic purpose, in practical terms Kirk doesn't like to lose, and he doesn't discriminate on non-tactical and thus irrelevant grounds.
Timo Saloniemi
I understand the argument being made, but it was made in a very insulting way. Saying someone “throws like a girl” is intended as an insult, implying that girls can’t throw a ball properly, which is completely untrue. Saying Kira got beat up “by a girl” amounts to the same thing. Referring to a full grown woman as a girl in this case is clearly meant to be disparaging. If the original thread tile had been "Kira got beat (by a woman!)" it might have been a little easier to swallow, but still has problems.
Oh dear, I don't understand your point: to me you sound like you're saying Mareel couldn't be a highly competent fighter because she's a woman? Why can't Major Kira's toughest opponent be female?
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Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner!
Could we add that there is no reason to believe that Kira couldn't get better at hand-to-hand combat?
I appreciate the general unease surrounding this topic, but I can't bring myself to agree with the specifics. In fact, I have major problems with them. From the trivial to the significant:
1) Why would we consider "girls can't throw" an untrue statement? It's observably true around where I live, and evidently true elsewhere for having become such a trope/prejudice in the first place. And never mind that there are quite specific reasons behind this phenomenon - even my egalitarian little country can't bring itself to get serious about teaching young girls those sports that involve throwing. Or any sports, for that matter. In this, "girls can't throw" merely joins issues like "girls have long hair" or "girls like pink", statistically true statements with deep roots in rather arbitrary and even ridiculous cultural practices that as such do no harm.
2) It's a straw man of sorts anyway, as the issue at hand is more like "girls are weaker than boys". Which in turn is a false statement for most values of "girl", considering how much faster girls mature in the early years. The real issue with Kira of course is whether one can stomach the statement "women are weaker than men", which in turn is true. (Although perhaps complicated by the no doubt existing and perhaps significant differences between Bajorans and Mareel's species.)
3) All of the above is just setting for the serious issue, though: why on Earth should a quality associated with a gender cast said gender in a bad light? We aren't created equal - some are worse than others in certain things. But that's worse as in poor, not worse as in evil. Why assign superfluous significance to our differences? "You throw like a girl" or "You reek like a boy" do not refer to societal wrongs we should strive to set right - there's nothing wrong with throwing like a girl (until one becomes a baseball player, at which point the issue becomes moot because it stems from lack of training in the first place) or smelling like a boy (until one gets into puberty, and has to take steps to compensate). So why turn those into societal wrongs thrmselves? It's about as contrary to egalitarianism as one can achieve without spraining a cortical lobe.
Timo Saloniemi
1) Why would we consider "girls can't throw" an untrue statement? It's observably true around where I live, and evidently true elsewhere for having become such a trope/prejudice in the first place. And never mind that there are quite specific reasons behind this phenomenon - even my egalitarian little country can't bring itself to get serious about teaching young girls those sports that involve throwing. Or any sports, for that matter. In this, "girls can't throw" merely joins issues like "girls have long hair" or "girls like pink", statistically true statements with deep roots in rather arbitrary and even ridiculous cultural practices that as such do no harm.
2) It's a straw man of sorts anyway, as the issue at hand is more like "girls are weaker than boys". Which in turn is a false statement for most values of "girl", considering how much faster girls mature in the early years. The real issue with Kira of course is whether one can stomach the statement "women are weaker than men", which in turn is true. (Although perhaps complicated by the no doubt existing and perhaps significant differences between Bajorans and Mareel's species.)
3) All of the above is just setting for the serious issue, though: why on Earth should a quality associated with a gender cast said gender in a bad light? We aren't created equal - some are worse than others in certain things. But that's worse as in poor, not worse as in evil. Why assign superfluous significance to our differences? "You throw like a girl" or "You reek like a boy" do not refer to societal wrongs we should strive to set right - there's nothing wrong with throwing like a girl (until one becomes a baseball player, at which point the issue becomes moot because it stems from lack of training in the first place) or smelling like a boy (until one gets into puberty, and has to take steps to compensate). So why turn those into societal wrongs thrmselves? It's about as contrary to egalitarianism as one can achieve without spraining a cortical lobe.
Timo Saloniemi
But Kira beats down that Klingon in the very same episode (even if Odo helps a bit).
Obviously that Mareel is a lot tougher than she looks at first sight.
Obviously that Mareel is a lot tougher than she looks at first sight.
"boys like to post sexist things on the internet"
Statistically true.
Well, it is also observably untrue which is the problem with statements like these. "Some girls are not got at throwing a ball" or "You throw like a girl who is not good at throwing a ball" would be more correct statements, but especially the second one is rather redundant. The problem with "girls can't throw" is that it becomes a sort of self-fulfilling prophecy. If you're told over and over again that you can't throw that's going to affect you negatively.
In that case it might be less controversial to say "some girls can't throw because my country does not properly educate them in that field".
Yes, they are arbitrary and ridiculous, but they do harm to those who break away from those norms. Girls with short hair who wear jeans or other clothes that are associated with boys are going to have a harder time than those who confrom to the stereotype. And boys have it even harder with this than girls. Imagine a boy who has long hair, wears make-up and a dress, because he thinks that it looks good on him. He's not transgender, he's just a boy who wears clothes that our society associates with the female gender. He's going to have a very hard time because of over-generalized statementes like "girls have long hair, boy's don't".
Because said quality is negative? If you're saying "You throw like a girl" then you're assigning a bad quality with a gender which in turn casts said gender in a bad light when that quality is concerned.
Well, you're sort of right about boys; them "reeking" is not a societal wrong, but girls being told that they're bad at throwing because they're girls, a group that's bad at throwing is a societal wrong. And not saying things like "You throw like a girl" helps stop the spreading of such wrongs.
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