Kira and O'Brien
- Thread starter Six of Twelve
- Start date
I think there's plenty of scenes where the connection is shown..such as when she's rid of the Pagh Wraith for instance.
I wouldn't characterise what was said earlier in the thread as misogyny either...borderline sexist and badly phrased in...archaic terms, but misogyny is a different thing. I think what he was describing was the archetypes both characters sometimes embody (look at the Odo and chocolates scene in the runabout. That is straight out of a fifties sit com. The bad husband has forgotten to buy his wife a present, hapless fool...its funny, but cringeworthy.) and also something that is occasionally true in real life between couples.
I can't agree with all of what was said, even if the gist seems to be that. The pregnancy stuff is whacko...it was the late twentieth century when it was made, and the 23rd when it was set. No one is babying up the little woman to shut her up. That's just nonsense. And sexist.
In both cases (and against what I say about Ds9 in a different discussion) their characters also pander a little to national stereotype...Miles is both Japanese salaryman and traditional Irish father, Keiko is both Mammy and house running, career running Japanese housewife.
Fortunately, they break out of this set up often enough for it not to be all that defines them, in much the same way Tom and Bells aren't the bad boy made good and the troubled girl that would fit into Toms fifties fantasies, over in Voyager.
The most important thing in all this is when they are shown working their problems out in...is it Fascination? The snoggy episode with lwxana in having menopausal bendii syndrome that is fun, but like a blender hitting a fan fic site at warp 10.
On that note, I do think a little of the Keiko hate comes from that camp...where two best buddies like Julian and Miles must also be a couple.
The Kira thing was about the only believable 'other woman' scenario, and resolved well....I think it also shows that Kira and O'Brien were likely to be good friends. Had Worf not shown up, it's easy to imagine Dax, Kira, O'Brien and Bashir as holodeck and drinking buddies. Even with Worf, and his scent of lilac, it's easy to imagine.
I wouldn't characterise what was said earlier in the thread as misogyny either...borderline sexist and badly phrased in...archaic terms, but misogyny is a different thing. I think what he was describing was the archetypes both characters sometimes embody (look at the Odo and chocolates scene in the runabout. That is straight out of a fifties sit com. The bad husband has forgotten to buy his wife a present, hapless fool...its funny, but cringeworthy.) and also something that is occasionally true in real life between couples.
I can't agree with all of what was said, even if the gist seems to be that. The pregnancy stuff is whacko...it was the late twentieth century when it was made, and the 23rd when it was set. No one is babying up the little woman to shut her up. That's just nonsense. And sexist.
In both cases (and against what I say about Ds9 in a different discussion) their characters also pander a little to national stereotype...Miles is both Japanese salaryman and traditional Irish father, Keiko is both Mammy and house running, career running Japanese housewife.
Fortunately, they break out of this set up often enough for it not to be all that defines them, in much the same way Tom and Bells aren't the bad boy made good and the troubled girl that would fit into Toms fifties fantasies, over in Voyager.
The most important thing in all this is when they are shown working their problems out in...is it Fascination? The snoggy episode with lwxana in having menopausal bendii syndrome that is fun, but like a blender hitting a fan fic site at warp 10.
On that note, I do think a little of the Keiko hate comes from that camp...where two best buddies like Julian and Miles must also be a couple.
The Kira thing was about the only believable 'other woman' scenario, and resolved well....I think it also shows that Kira and O'Brien were likely to be good friends. Had Worf not shown up, it's easy to imagine Dax, Kira, O'Brien and Bashir as holodeck and drinking buddies. Even with Worf, and his scent of lilac, it's easy to imagine.
It's not necessarily so that Keiko and O'Brien were a bad pairing per say. They are as a good a pairing as anyone really. Depictions of reasonably functional domestic relationships are often quite boring in drama. There was episodes that were presented as giving 'the little woman' something to do..etc. And Keiko nagging and all this sort of thing. That never flatters whereas Kira and O'Brien would be both on the cutting edge enjoying a general parity of esteem professionally.
O'Brien and Kira do have a degree of chemistry. But I'm glad a break-up wasn't pursued, it would've commandeered a number of episodes and I just don't think it would've been an apt to go in that direction anyway.
O'Brien and Kira do have a degree of chemistry. But I'm glad a break-up wasn't pursued, it would've commandeered a number of episodes and I just don't think it would've been an apt to go in that direction anyway.
I know exactly what you mean, regarding the perspective changing as you get older. I think I was 16 when I first saw "Par'mach", and I just didn't get that Kira/O'Brien subplot at all. My teen brain was like: he's doughy, she's pregnant, suddenly they're into each other, what, gross, eww, this does not make sense.
I rewatched DS9 recently, and I've now had that experience, of finding myself being drawn towards a possible affair and then having that moment with my friend of saying "no, stop, we have to get a hold of ourselves and back away now, because we do not actually want to blow up our current relationships." With more life experience, I was surprised by how touching and authentic I now find that episode to be.
I totally agree with this. On the larger question of Keiko & O'Brien... I didn't quite get it on TNG, but I actually really loved their relationship once they arrived on DS9, and I always enjoyed a Keiko appearance (even in "Time's Orphan" -- in fact, that's basically the only thing I can take away from that mess -- we hadn't seen Keiko for over a year at that point and were overdue to check in on her). I loved the way her whole story with the school winds thru the various phases of early DS9... that frontier-schoolteacher angle in "A Man Alone," the culture clash in "In The Hands Of The Prophets", and finally struggling with what to do with herself when the school closes because of the impending conflict with the Dominion in "The House Of Quark." Keiko was a great character for exploring the repercussions all this tumult had for the civilian population on DS9.
Who hasn't been in this situation? Miles is kinda spinning his wheels with a wife who he is desperately trying to satisfy to no avail. There is an attractive woman who basically enters into his inner circle, and they just hit it off. It's also interesting to note when the Cardassian scientist who was ready to throw down with him. Temptation exists in the 24th century. That being said, I truly dislike Keiko. I think it was the stodgy acting by Chao.
Miles is the working class Everyman and working class Everymen have affairs,they get drunk afterwards and their family lives are often ruined but it does happen.
I don't see why he wouldn't go for Kira or that female Cardassian or whoever if his wife was gone or he was in a particular period of vulnerability.
I don't see why he wouldn't go for Kira or that female Cardassian or whoever if his wife was gone or he was in a particular period of vulnerability.
Because it's the 24th century, Star Trek is a bit more positive, and while it does happen, it's not exactly what you could call a universal rule. I don't watch Eastenders, I watch Ds9.
Hey! No hating on EastEnders
There is no world more alien, more divorced from our reality, than the pocket universe of Walford.
There is not correlation between infidelity and social class among men.
YUP.
As for "chemistry", they act like a married couple that's lived together for years. Especially a couple that's had to make more than one sacrifice. Those relationships look (most of the time) a lot more like friendships than lovestruck teenagers who can't stop making out.
I'd never have problem with Chao's acting. Unless her character has some parity in professional terms she was always to be placed in the "dear, be safe" role whilst she potters around with plants as Head of the Geranium Department.
I don't care if you've Meryl Streep on your payroll, you can't act that into an exciting character. Keiko was always going to be an unflattering foil to O'Brien rather than a stand-out character in her own right.
I don't care if you've Meryl Streep on your payroll, you can't act that into an exciting character. Keiko was always going to be an unflattering foil to O'Brien rather than a stand-out character in her own right.
I'm not saying there is I'm saying what happens and what happens afterward is different.
I was never a huge fan of the Obrien Keiko pairing, and enjoyed the interaction between him and Kira. But, the fact that Obrien was a married man being attracted to another woman really bothered me on a personal level.
Really? Why? You can reasonably expect someone to honor a monogamous commitment, but you can't ask them to stop being attracted to others, that will still be there. He's married, not dead.
I never minded Keiko.
Visitor and Meaney did have some good chemistry together as actors but it wouldn't have made any sense for their characters to get together.
Visitor and Meaney did have some good chemistry together as actors but it wouldn't have made any sense for their characters to get together.
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