Kes V Seven of Nine

[Lynx]

Never said anything of the sort. Multiple actresses auditioned for Seven. Jeri turned the audition down 4 times. IIRC, Jeri Taylor talked her into auditioning for it.

On "Boston Public," the role was written for Jeri.

Sorry, I must have mixed it up, the fact that Jeri Taylor talked her into auditioning for it and the role in "Boston Public".

So it still stands that the producers had plenty of time during the auditions for Seven of Nine to create the departure story they did for Kes.

If they had so much time, then they did a very bad job by coming up with such a thin and unconvincing story.

If we watch the season 3 episodes including "Scorpion1" and then "Scorpion2" and "The Gift" we can see that there are some good episodes with Kes as a main character with much importance, such as "The Swarm", "Warlord", "Darkling", "Before And After" and "Scorpion1" where Kes gets a lot of action. Not to mention that "Year Of Hell" was originally supposed to be the cliffhanger between seasons 3 and 4 and also a follow-up to "Before And After". Clear indications that Kes was becoming an important character. On the other hand, we can see Harry being more and more shoved aside with only one episode where he had a prominent role, "Favorite Son".

In "Scorpion 1", Harry is close to death and it was easy to assume that he would be killed off during "Scorpion2". But suddenly Harry recovers in a miraculous way and then we have the patchwork story in "The Gift" and all of a sudden, Kes is gone instead.

So whatever the writers were doing during the auditions for who would become Seven, it don't look like that they were planning a goodbye story for Kes, more that they were planning Harry's exit, if they were planning anything at all.

 

[Lynx]

Maybe this was the reason to let her go early. Do you understand how depressing it would be watching a character be in old age and you are asking how many more days are left before we find her dead in her sleep. Sure, she could die other ways of old age. Still, think of the crew when they are thinking how a nice and peaceful way Kes would die. That is depresssing.

I can agree about that. I find that scenario very depressing and more worthy a mediocre, third-rate soap opera than Star Trek.

However, if that would have been the reason for Kes's "dismissal", I'm sure that those in charge would have mentioned it instead of coming up with those pathetic excuses they did come up with.

After all, there were hints for prolonging her lifespan.

Would not the prolonging her lifespan be a scenario from a soap opera too?

Sorry to say, her character was a doomed character that could not last the full seven years. In fairness, Kes and Neelix were the last characters from the first season that did not make the show work. Unless you really wanted to see seven years like the first season.

I strongly disagree here. I think both Kes and Neelix did contribute a lot to the show. Calling Kes "a doomed character" is wrong and seem like an after-construction. There were many directions in which they could have taken the character and it would have worked fine due to the characters fine qualities.

As for doomed characters, I must state that what Tuvok, Torres, Paris, Kim, Neelix and Chakotay became in the later seasons more personifies the word "doomed".

Exodus wrote:

IMO I think Neelix worked better once Kes left because they intergrated all her best personality qualities into him. His jealousy & stubborn streak were gone and he became a more compassionate character.

I think it makes the show "feel" more natural by not having everyone that joined Voyagers crew make the entire journey to Earth. For Kes & Neelix, it shows growth and the fact they're now secure enough to be independant, while no longer needing to use Voyager's crew as a crutch.

Kes and Neelix actually broke up in season 3 so the "jealousy and stubborn streak" obviously ended without Kes having to leave. Besides that, I don't think that Neelix changed anything in the later seasons. he was still the same Neelix.

But if someone dislikes a character, it's always easy to blame that character for everything, even the weather.

And I think it was silly to dump Kes and Neelix. They should have been among the crew when Voyager returned to Earth. Kes was as eager to go to Earth as the rest of them and Neelix promised many times that he would never abandon Janeway. For some reasons, the writer did seem to "forget" that. But of course, they did have short memory.

 

[exodus]

Sorry, I must have mixed it up, the fact that Jeri Taylor talked her into auditioning for it and the role in "Boston Public".

So it still stands that the producers had plenty of time during the auditions for Seven of Nine to create the departure story they did for Kes.

If they had so much time, then they did a very bad job by coming up with such a thin and unconvincing story.

If we watch the season 3 episodes including "Scorpion1" and then "Scorpion2" and "The Gift" we can see that there are some good episodes with Kes as a main character with much importance, such as "The Swarm", "Warlord", "Darkling", "Before And After" and "Scorpion1" where Kes gets a lot of action. Not to mention that "Year Of Hell" was originally supposed to be the cliffhanger between seasons 3 and 4 and also a follow-up to "Before And After". Clear indications that Kes was becoming an important character. On the other hand, we can see Harry being more and more shoved aside with only one episode where he had a prominent role, "Favorite Son".

In "Scorpion 1", Harry is close to death and it was easy to assume that he would be killed off during "Scorpion2". But suddenly Harry recovers in a miraculous way and then we have the patchwork story in "The Gift" and all of a sudden, Kes is gone instead.

So whatever the writers were doing during the auditions for who would become Seven, it don't look like that they were planning a goodbye story for Kes, more that they were planning Harry's exit, if they were planning anything at all.

That's just your opinion, several fans of the show find "The Gift" a great episode.

If you're opinion is that it's thin & unconvincing then I assume you prefer they killed her off instead, that would be the only other option of removing the character from the series. Prehaps if they had, there would be no debate at all. You should learn to look on the brightside and be thankful she isn't dead like Jadzia Dax or Tasha Yar.

Me personally, I don't see Kes' role in "Warlord", "Darkling" or "B&A" all that important, especilly considering they erased the entire "B&A" timeline, they replaced Kes with Tuvok when it came to communicating with Species 8472 and Paris took her job as p/t nurse. "Warlord" & "Darkling" didn't affect anybody beyond those eps. I just tells me what ever Kes brought to Voyager was easily replaceable and she had no lasting affects in the long run..

Janeway was also close to death too in "Scorpion" and had miraculous recovery, as did many patients the Doc. treated over the shows seven year run. Nothing that happened during Kes' departure is unconvincing that hasn't been done before within the show or some other Trek series.

The writers didn't "forget" anything. Neelix left for good reason. Anybody in a relationship could tell you Neelix "friends" on Voyager don't compare with having a wife and child. You're spouse is supposed to be the greatest friend you ever have. Not one single person on Voyager could give Neelix the intimate love he longed for. Neelix didn't want to go to Earth, what he repeatedly stated for seven years was to have a family again. Neither one abandoned Janeway, she gave them both her blessing to leave and have a life of their own.

 

[Lynx]

So it still stands that the producers had plenty of time during the auditions for Seven of Nine to create the departure story they did for Kes.

If they had so much time, then they did a very bad job by coming up with such a thin and unconvincing story.

If we watch the season 3 episodes including "Scorpion1" and then "Scorpion2" and "The Gift" we can see that there are some good episodes with Kes as a main character with much importance, such as "The Swarm", "Warlord", "Darkling", "Before And After" and "Scorpion1" where Kes gets a lot of action. Not to mention that "Year Of Hell" was originally supposed to be the cliffhanger between seasons 3 and 4 and also a follow-up to "Before And After". Clear indications that Kes was becoming an important character. On the other hand, we can see Harry being more and more shoved aside with only one episode where he had a prominent role, "Favorite Son".

In "Scorpion 1", Harry is close to death and it was easy to assume that he would be killed off during "Scorpion2". But suddenly Harry recovers in a miraculous way and then we have the patchwork story in "The Gift" and all of a sudden, Kes is gone instead.

So whatever the writers were doing during the auditions for who would become Seven, it don't look like that they were planning a goodbye story for Kes, more that they were planning Harry's exit, if they were planning anything at all.

That's just your opinion, several fans of the show find "The Gift" a great episode.

If you're opinion is that it's thin & unconvincing then I assume you prefer they killed her off instead, that would be the only other option of removing the character from the series. Prehaps if they had, there would be no debate at all. You should learn to look on the brightside and be thankful she isn't dead like Jadzia Dax or Tasha Yar.

Me personally, I don't see Kes' role in "Warlord", "Darkling" or "B&A" all that important, especilly considering they erased the entire "B&A" timeline, they replaced Kes with Tuvok when it came to communicating with Species 8472 and Paris took her job as p/t nurse. "Warlord" & "Darkling" didn't affect anybody beyond those eps. I just tells me what ever Kes brought to Voyager was easily replaceable and she had no lasting affects in the long run..

Janeway was also close to death too in "Scorpion" and had miraculous recovery, as did many patients the Doc. treated over the shows seven year run. Nothing that happened during Kes' departure is unconvincing that hasn't been done before within the show or some other Trek series.

The writers didn't "forget" anything. Neelix left for good reason. Anybody in a relationship could tell you Neelix "friends" on Voyager don't compare with having a wife and child. You're spouse is supposed to be the greatest friend you ever have. Not one single person on Voyager could give Neelix the intimate love he longed for. Neelix didn't want to go to Earth, what he repeatedly stated for seven years was to have a family again. Neither one abandoned Janeway, she gave them both her blessing to leave and have a life of their own.

What they did in "Fury" was worse than killing off the character.

And no, they shouldn't have "removed" her at all.

As for Neelix's leaving, it was unnecessary. That episode didn't serve any purpose. Besides that, finding a Talaxian colony so far from Talaxian space was ridiculous.

 

[exodus]

If they had so much time, then they did a very bad job by coming up with such a thin and unconvincing story.

If we watch the season 3 episodes including "Scorpion1" and then "Scorpion2" and "The Gift" we can see that there are some good episodes with Kes as a main character with much importance, such as "The Swarm", "Warlord", "Darkling", "Before And After" and "Scorpion1" where Kes gets a lot of action. Not to mention that "Year Of Hell" was originally supposed to be the cliffhanger between seasons 3 and 4 and also a follow-up to "Before And After". Clear indications that Kes was becoming an important character. On the other hand, we can see Harry being more and more shoved aside with only one episode where he had a prominent role, "Favorite Son".

In "Scorpion 1", Harry is close to death and it was easy to assume that he would be killed off during "Scorpion2". But suddenly Harry recovers in a miraculous way and then we have the patchwork story in "The Gift" and all of a sudden, Kes is gone instead.

So whatever the writers were doing during the auditions for who would become Seven, it don't look like that they were planning a goodbye story for Kes, more that they were planning Harry's exit, if they were planning anything at all.

That's just your opinion, several fans of the show find "The Gift" a great episode.

If you're opinion is that it's thin & unconvincing then I assume you prefer they killed her off instead, that would be the only other option of removing the character from the series. Prehaps if they had, there would be no debate at all. You should learn to look on the brightside and be thankful she isn't dead like Jadzia Dax or Tasha Yar.

Me personally, I don't see Kes' role in "Warlord", "Darkling" or "B&A" all that important, especilly considering they erased the entire "B&A" timeline, they replaced Kes with Tuvok when it came to communicating with Species 8472 and Paris took her job as p/t nurse. "Warlord" & "Darkling" didn't affect anybody beyond those eps. I just tells me what ever Kes brought to Voyager was easily replaceable and she had no lasting affects in the long run..

Janeway was also close to death too in "Scorpion" and had miraculous recovery, as did many patients the Doc. treated over the shows seven year run. Nothing that happened during Kes' departure is unconvincing that hasn't been done before within the show or some other Trek series.

The writers didn't "forget" anything. Neelix left for good reason. Anybody in a relationship could tell you Neelix "friends" on Voyager don't compare with having a wife and child. You're spouse is supposed to be the greatest friend you ever have. Not one single person on Voyager could give Neelix the intimate love he longed for. Neelix didn't want to go to Earth, what he repeatedly stated for seven years was to have a family again. Neither one abandoned Janeway, she gave them both her blessing to leave and have a life of their own.

What they did in "Fury" was worse than killing off the character.

And no, they shouldn't have "removed" her at all.

As for Neelix's leaving, it was unnecessary. That episode didn't serve any purpose. Besides that, finding a Talaxian colony so far from Talaxian space was ridiculous.

"Homestead" serves as a conclusion to everything we're learned about Neelix after 7 years.
Maybe when you find someone worth marring you'll understand.

Finding Talaxians on the other side of their own quaderant is no more ridiculous than finding people from China living in New York City. History books are full of people from far away lands traveling an colonizing places half a world away.

As far a removing her, I trust the producers.

 

[Ezri II]

If it was so important that Kes and Neelix grow old together and die in each others wrinkled arms, and it's so hard to expand Kes' life expectancy, then why didn't they just shorten Nelix's life span? I mean he was looking at another 30 to 50 years of golden years after she passed on... 50 years without your one true love to rub your feet and tell you that your whiskers are pretty? Not a life worth living, surely?

Maybe that is the reason that a new character of star trek is under the age of 40. True, Picard is a break in that rule.

Would not be that interesting to deal with a character that is 80 in human years and deal with a 7 year series. True, with other species we can give them many years of experience but make sure they live to be 200 years helps with age and experience.

 

[Lynx]

"Homestead" serves as a conclusion to everything we're learned about Neelix after 7 years.
Maybe when you find someone worth marring you'll understand.

Finding Talaxians on the other side of their own quaderant is no more ridiculous than finding people from China living in New York City. History books are full of people from far away lands traveling an colonizing places half a world away.

Finding Talaxians on a tiny asteroid so far from Talaxian space is as believable as if I should jump off a plane in a parachute over Antarctica and run into a relative of mine within 5 minutes after landing.

As far a removing her, I trust the producers.

I can see that since you have expressed your dislike for the character and the actress several times. I, on the other hand, likes the character and think that she was dumped and destroyed for no acceptable reason.

 

[Ezri II]

What ever happened to Kes after she left Voyager?

Just me, but I see more information of Jeri Ryan going to Star Trek convestions then Jennifer (aka Kes). Hope that Kes is not working at Hooters.

 

[Lynx]

What ever happened to Kes after she left Voyager?

Just me, but I see more information of Jeri Ryan going to Star Trek convestions then Jennifer (aka Kes). Hope that Kes is not working at Hooters.

If you mean the actress Jennifer Lien, she's married and have a son.

She has also have some appearances at some conventions this year.

 

[Ezri II]

What ever happened to Kes after she left Voyager?

Just me, but I see more information of Jeri Ryan going to Star Trek convestions then Jennifer (aka Kes). Hope that Kes is not working at Hooters.

If you mean the actress Jennifer Lien, she's married and have a son.

She has also have some appearances at some conventions this year.

That is nice. Glad she get an invite to a convention.

Side note: Anyone have a picture of Jennifer Lien and Nicole DeBoer at a convention?

 

[exodus]

"Homestead" serves as a conclusion to everything we're learned about Neelix after 7 years.
Maybe when you find someone worth marring you'll understand.

Finding Talaxians on the other side of their own quaderant is no more ridiculous than finding people from China living in New York City. History books are full of people from far away lands traveling an colonizing places half a world away.

Finding Talaxians on a tiny asteroid so far from Talaxian space is as believable as if I should jump off a plane in a parachute over Antarctica and run into a relative of mine within 5 minutes after landing.

As far a removing her, I trust the producers.

I can see that since you have expressed your dislike for the character and the actress several times. I, on the other hand, likes the character and think that she was dumped and destroyed for no acceptable reason.

I have expressed no dislike of either the character or the actress, only that I feel Ryan was better. Please keep your personal judgements of what you believe I think out of this, thank you. I have stated my support of the producers in several topics, in several forums on this site on the show as a whole. Kes is one of many choices they made that I happen to support. Just keep in mind I don't link your dislike of the producers decisions as a personal hate of the people themselves.

If your relative was an explorer, it's possable. However, you can't parachute into Antartica anyway due to climate conditions. I've travelled from the US East coast to the West coast and run into people from NJ., so it's not a hard concept for me to grasp that people travel outside their relm of origin. If they didn't we wouldn't have such things as Asian West Indians or White South Africans. Besides, they weren't even related to Neelix, only of the same "race". However, the Talaxain issue is no more absurd than half the fiction we've accept in Star Trek since day one. Klingons in the Delta Q. in an out of date ship?
Scotty in the transporter buffer for decades?
Kirk alive and well inside "the Ribbon"?

Many aspects and concepts within Trek are more fiction than fact, so if you find the issues of Kes & Neelix hard to believe, it's because the entire Trek universe is fiction.

 

[Akiraprise]

Why does every Kes thread go 100 pages long?

 

[Lynx]

I have expressed no dislike of either the character or the actress, only that I feel Ryan was better. Please keep your personal judgements of what you believe I think out of this, thank you. I have stated my support of the producers in several topics, in several forums on this site on the show as a whole. Kes is one of many choices they made that I happen to support. Just keep in mind I don't link your dislike of the producers decisions as a personal hate of the people themselves.

If your relative was an explorer, it's possable. However, you can't parachute into Antartica anyway due to climate conditions. I've travelled from the US East coast to the West coast and run into people from NJ., so it's not a hard concept for me to grasp that people travel outside their relm of origin. If they didn't we wouldn't have such things as Asian West Indians or White South Africans. Besides, they weren't even related to Neelix, only of the same "race". However, the Talaxain issue is no more absurd than half the fiction we've accept in Star Trek since day one. Klingons in the Delta Q. in an out of date ship?
Scotty in the transporter buffer for decades?
Kirk alive and well inside "the Ribbon"?

Many aspects and concepts within Trek are more fiction than fact, so if you find the issues of Kes & Neelix hard to believe, it's because the entire Trek universe is fiction.

Well, you have actually written some not so nice things about the character and the actress on another forum so I assumed that you don't like neither the character nor the actress.

As for the Antarctica comment, OK it's impossible to parachute into Antarctica but the chances that I would run into a relative there are still incredible small. The same for running into a bunch of Talaxians on a tiny asteroid so far from Talaxian space.

And yes, there have been such events in Trek before. Too many, I think.

 

[Lynx]

Why does every Kes thread go 100 pages long?

Maybe because some people (me among them) like to rant about the character.

 

[psikeyhackr]

I liked them both but on the whole Seve was more interesting. Kes was annoyingly wimpy. But I have been banned on two message boards and told they hope I get banned on a third. ROFL

Someone behaving like Seven in the real world could get annoying but on a TV show with her character explained it was mostly just amusing.

psik

 

[Ezri II]

Would love to think of the meeting of Kes and Seven when both women are in leather doing. Hold it now it is just a fantasy. Never mind.

 

[Guy Gardener]

That's your fantasy?

Dressed in nothing but strategically placed dollups of ice cream, they're having a pillow fight while singing the theme to Xanadu.

 

[exodus]

Well, you have actually written some not so nice things about the character and the actress on another forum so I assumed that you don't like neither the character nor the actress.

That is why you should never assume.

 

[Josh_Lyman]

Seven is a better character than Kes and Jeri Ryan blows Jennifer Lien away in acting ability. Also, Lien is super obese now.

 

[Guy Gardener]

The bigger the cushion, the better the pushing.

I want to feed Jeri cheese burgers till she becomes a more performance orientated girth.