Kes V Seven of Nine

[exodus]

^^
It could have been a reason for her leaving in season 4. However, I still have the feeling that Kes's exit was too quick to be planned as some way to write out the character before any problems with her aging started. If they really wanted her to leave because of problems with her aging, they could have had the decency to let her leave with Zahir in "Darkling" instead of coming up with that "energy-being" mumbo-jumbo.

What difference does it make whether she stayed with Zahir or left during "The Gift", she's still leaving either way.

Besides, if the producers had enough time to hold auditions to cast the role of Seven of Nine, it also means they had time to write a story for Kes to leave and not rush it. So Kes left just as they had planned it out to be.

 

[Lynx]

^^
It could have been a reason for her leaving in season 4. However, I still have the feeling that Kes's exit was too quick to be planned as some way to write out the character before any problems with her aging started. If they really wanted her to leave because of problems with her aging, they could have had the decency to let her leave with Zahir in "Darkling" instead of coming up with that "energy-being" mumbo-jumbo.

What difference does it make whether she stayed with Zahir or left during "The Gift", she's still leaving either way.

Besides, if the producers had enough time to hold auditions to cast the role of Seven of Nine, it also means they had time to write a story for Kes to leave and not rush it. So Kes left just as they had planned it out to be.

Because if she had left with Zahir, it would have been a more decent leaving than that energy-being mumbo-jumbo crap they did come up with. Not that I would have appreciated her "leaving" anyway but it would still have been the less evil solution.

I would also like to remind you that they actually asked Jeri Ryan directly if she would do the job, I din't think that they did have any auditions for it. (I think that teya wrote something about it once.)

And at that point, they obviously hadn't decide who to dump and the first choice was obviously Kim.

And believe me, if they have had long-time plans for dumping Kes, then they would have been very eager to state that in their official statements instead of coming up with the rather pathetic explanations they did come up with.

 

[Guy Gardener]

I found it odd that the Doctor murdered her "lover" and she didn't hold any reservations against him in subsequent episodes, considering the venom she had toward Tuvix which eventually saw to his execution.

 

[Lynx]

I found it odd that the Doctor murdered her "lover" and she didn't hold any reservations against him in subsequent episodes, considering the venom she had toward Tuvix which eventually saw to his execution.

Sorry, got to correct you here. Zahir didn't die.

And Kes didn't hate Tuvix either. In fact, she was friendly and cordial to him. But at that point she wanted neelix back and Tuvix made the mistake in trying to force Kes to make Janeway change her decision.

 

[Guy Gardener]

beaten but not murdered... I just went over the script looking for the reason why Kes chose not to run off with Zahir since he wasn't dead and... She gave up star trekking and hot sex with a bad ass alien because she can only cope with the "unpredictable" on Voyager surrounded by her "loved ones" who would be there to look after her. Her new freaking Caretakers.

Wow. That's as retarding as Kim's final assessment at the end of Nightingale.

O.

You know how a couple will stay together after they stop loving each other because they want to reduce impact on the children, y'know, wait till they get older... maybe kes stayed to look after the Doctor if this is how badly he spazzed out just because she felt a little wander lust.

And on the matter of Tuvix, afetr a month kes made a tearful crying rant to Janeway that she wanted Neelix back and that she didn't care if Tuvix had to be murdered, or words to those effect. Meanwhile in the time leading up to that, kes was spurning Tuvix's advances which seemed to tire her because he's not the man she loved and he couldn't understand how he wasn't since both halves of him wanted a leg over.

 

[teya]

I would also like to remind you that they actually asked Jeri Ryan directly if she would do the job, I din't think that they did have any auditions for it. (I think that teya wrote something about it once.)

Never said anything of the sort. Multiple actresses auditioned for Seven. Jeri turned the audition down 4 times. IIRC, Jeri Taylor talked her into auditioning for it.

On "Boston Public," the role was written for Jeri.

 

[Lynx]

I would also like to remind you that they actually asked Jeri Ryan directly if she would do the job, I din't think that they did have any auditions for it. (I think that teya wrote something about it once.)

Never said anything of the sort. Multiple actresses auditioned for Seven. Jeri turned the audition down 4 times. IIRC, Jeri Taylor talked her into auditioning for it.

On "Boston Public," the role was written for Jeri.

Sorry, I must have mixed it up, the fact that Jeri Taylor talked her into auditioning for it and the role in "Boston Public".

 

[Lynx]

beaten but not murdered... I just went over the script looking for the reason why Kes chose not to run off with Zahir since he wasn't dead and... She gave up star trekking and hot sex with a bad ass alien because she can only cope with the "unpredictable" on Voyager surrounded by her "loved ones" would be there to look after her. Her new freaking Caretakers.

Wow. That's as retarding as Kim's final assessment at the end of Nightingale.

O.

You know how a couple will stay together after they stop loving each other because they want to reduce impact on the children, y'know, wait till they get older... maybe kes stayed to look after the Doctor if this is how badly he spazzed out just because she felt a little wander lust.

And on the matter of Tuvix, afetr a month kes made a tearful crying rant to Janeway that she wanted Neelix back and that she didn't care if Tuvix had to be murdered, or words to those effect. Meanwhile in the time leading up to that, kes was spurning Tuvix's advances which seemed to tire her because he's not the man she loved and he couldn't understand how he wasn't since both halves of him wanted a leg over.

I think that Kes made the right decision when she decided to stay on the ship instead of following Zahir. It also proves that she loved her life on Voyager and her friends on the ship which makes the scenario in "Fury" even more ridiculous and unrealistic.

As for the Tuvix case, according to the Stardates, the events in that episode took place between 27 August and 5th September, not exactly a month. I don't think that she showed any malice to Tuvix, it was just the fact that she and everybody else wanted Tuvok and Neelix back and when the chance appeared, everybody approved on it.

 

[Ezri II]

Seven of course
Kes was nice too.

Im not sure how old Kes was to start with, but if she had stayed for the whole series wouldn't she be dying of old age as they were reaching Earth? (After 7 years travel and if she only lives to 9)
Not a happy ending.
(I think this has been mentioned before)

Maybe this was the reason to let her go early. Do you understand how depressing it would be watching a character be in old age and you are asking how many more days are left before we find her dead in her sleep. Sure, she could die other ways of old age. Still, think of the crew when they are thinking how a nice and peaceful way Kes would die. That is depresssing.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Naomi might be a short lifer too since she is aging twice as fast as a human.

Klingons mature twice as fast as a human too, Alexander was stationed under Martoks command when he was 7 Teran years old, but they can live for well over a hundred years while retaining a decent amount of vitality... The Paris kid would have been dating adult crewmen by the time she was 8 or 9 if they had remained stranded in the dq as long as they were supposed to.

Plenty of different alien life cycles. Tuvok should have scared the crap out of kes. 300 years if he's careful. That's just impossible to... Y'know, as far as Tuvok was concerned, in 20 or thirty years he would have been Captain, and with how one might measure comparative rates of patience, that would be like a couple weeks to a human.

 

[Guy Gardener]

As for the Tuvix case, according to the Stardates, the events in that episode took place between 27 August and 5th September, not exactly a month. I don't think that she showed any malice to Tuvix, it was just the fact that she and everybody else wanted Tuvok and Neelix back and when the chance appeared, everybody approved on it.

Except Janeway. She let Tuvix live.

Then Kes changed her mind.

That seems to be a motif.

In the middle of the night kes showing up and changing peoples minds since she did it in resolutions as well. Exactly how much telepathic "omphf" is she backing her arguments up with that the Captains of voyager dail their moral compasses 180 degrees to agree with Kes so often?

I'm not saying Kes is doing it on purpose mind you, but subconsciously and autonomically and subliminally she has to be right and her opinion weighs the most and resistance is futile.

Maybe?

 

[The Borg Queen]

As for the Tuvix case, according to the Stardates, the events in that episode took place between 27 August and 5th September, not exactly a month. I don't think that she showed any malice to Tuvix, it was just the fact that she and everybody else wanted Tuvok and Neelix back and when the chance appeared, everybody approved on it.

Except Janeway. She let Tuvix live.

Then Kes changed her mind.

That seems to be a motif.

In the middle of the night kes showing up and changing peoples minds since she did it in resolutions as well. Exactly how much telepathic "omphf" is she backing her arguments up with that the Captains of voyager dail their moral compasses 180 degrees to agree with Kes so often?

I'm not saying Kes is doing it on purpose mind you, but subconsciously and autonomically and subliminally she has to be right and her opinion weighs the most and resistance is futile.

Maybe?

That's actually a really cool idea!

 

[Lynx]

Seven of course
Kes was nice too.

Im not sure how old Kes was to start with, but if she had stayed for the whole series wouldn't she be dying of old age as they were reaching Earth? (After 7 years travel and if she only lives to 9)
Not a happy ending.
(I think this has been mentioned before)

Maybe this was the reason to let her go early. Do you understand how depressing it would be watching a character be in old age and you are asking how many more days are left before we find her dead in her sleep. Sure, she could die other ways of old age. Still, think of the crew when they are thinking how a nice and peaceful way Kes would die. That is depresssing.

I can agree about that. I find that scenario very depressing and more worthy a mediocre, third-rate soap opera than Star Trek.

However, if that would have been the reason for Kes's "dismissal", I'm sure that those in charge would have mentioned it instead of coming up with those pathetic excuses they did come up with.

After all, there were hints for prolonging her lifespan.

 

[Lynx]

As for the Tuvix case, according to the Stardates, the events in that episode took place between 27 August and 5th September, not exactly a month. I don't think that she showed any malice to Tuvix, it was just the fact that she and everybody else wanted Tuvok and Neelix back and when the chance appeared, everybody approved on it.

Except Janeway. She let Tuvix live.

Then Kes changed her mind.

That seems to be a motif.

In the middle of the night kes showing up and changing peoples minds since she did it in resolutions as well. Exactly how much telepathic "omphf" is she backing her arguments up with that the Captains of voyager dail their moral compasses 180 degrees to agree with Kes so often?

I'm not saying Kes is doing it on purpose mind you, but subconsciously and autonomically and subliminally she has to be right and her opinion weighs the most and resistance is futile.

Maybe?

Hmmmm.......I think that you have misunderstood the situation here.

It wasn't Kes who made the captain change her mind. It was The Doctor who all of a sudden found a way to separate Tuvok and Neelix and put everything back to normal. The lack of such a method was the reason why Janeway let Tuvix live in the first place and the discovery of such a method was the reason that she changed her mind.

But I can agree that Kes is good to persuade people, that's one of her charactersistics which I do find endearing.

 

[exodus]

I would also like to remind you that they actually asked Jeri Ryan directly if she would do the job, I din't think that they did have any auditions for it. (I think that teya wrote something about it once.)

Never said anything of the sort. Multiple actresses auditioned for Seven. Jeri turned the audition down 4 times. IIRC, Jeri Taylor talked her into auditioning for it.

On "Boston Public," the role was written for Jeri.

Sorry, I must have mixed it up, the fact that Jeri Taylor talked her into auditioning for it and the role in "Boston Public".

So it still stands that the producers had plenty of time during the auditions for Seven of Nine to create the departure story they did for Kes.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Except Janeway. She let Tuvix live.

Then Kes changed her mind.

That seems to be a motif.

In the middle of the night kes showing up and changing peoples minds since she did it in resolutions as well. Exactly how much telepathic "omphf" is she backing her arguments up with that the Captains of voyager dail their moral compasses 180 degrees to agree with Kes so often?

I'm not saying Kes is doing it on purpose mind you, but subconsciously and autonomically and subliminally she has to be right and her opinion weighs the most and resistance is futile.

Maybe?

Hmmmm.......I think that you have misunderstood the situation here.

It wasn't Kes who made the captain change her mind. It was The Doctor who all of a sudden found a way to separate Tuvok and Neelix and put everything back to normal. The lack of such a method was the reason why Janeway let Tuvix live in the first place and the discovery of such a method was the reason that she changed her mind.

But I can agree that Kes is good to persuade people, that's one of her charactersistics which I do find endearing.

I was in awe and a little disgusted last time i watched just a few months ago.

They figured out how to separate them, next scene Kathy says "when did this transporter accident become a person?", a scene later she asks Tuvix if she can murder him, he makes a decent argument for why she shouldn't.

then...

[Mess hall]
TUVIX: Kes, I need your help. I’ve just come from the Captain, and she’s thinking about forcing me to go through with the separation. If anybody can make a difference, Kes, it’s you. She’ll listen to you. We’ve helped each other through this and I know that you care about what happens to me. Please, Kes, you may be my only hope.
[Ready Room]
JANEWAY: Come in.
KES: Captain, Tuvix has asked me to speak to you on his behalf. But I can’t.
JANEWAY: He shouldn’t have put you in the middle of this.
KES: But I am in the middle. I have been since the moment of the accident. I don’t know how to say good bye to Neelix and Tuvok. I know this sounds horrible, and I feel so guilty for saying it, and Tuvix doesn’t deserve to die, but I want Neelix back.

So the scene with Janeway in her nighty was from earlier, my bad, but Kes pushed Janeway over the top with a decision which seemed to take her hours to make her mind up about, which means that she did seriously consider letting Tuvix live and kes might have had the power to push (nudge) the Captain other way if she had been so inclined or the tiny blonde girl would have remained nuetral if Tuvix hadn't tapped her mistaking the Ocampan for an ally.

 

[Ezri II]

Maybe this was the reason to let her go early. Do you understand how depressing it would be watching a character be in old age and you are asking how many more days are left before we find her dead in her sleep. Sure, she could die other ways of old age. Still, think of the crew when they are thinking how a nice and peaceful way Kes would die. That is depresssing.

I can agree about that. I find that scenario very depressing and more worthy a mediocre, third-rate soap opera than Star Trek.

However, if that would have been the reason for Kes's "dismissal", I'm sure that those in charge would have mentioned it instead of coming up with those pathetic excuses they did come up with.

After all, there were hints for prolonging her lifespan.

Would not the prolonging her lifespan be a scenario from a soap opera too?

Sorry to say, her character was a doomed character that could not last the full seven years. In fairness, Kes and Neelix were the last characters from the first season that did not make the show work. Unless you really wanted to see seven years like the first season.

 

[exodus]

Maybe this was the reason to let her go early. Do you understand how depressing it would be watching a character be in old age and you are asking how many more days are left before we find her dead in her sleep. Sure, she could die other ways of old age. Still, think of the crew when they are thinking how a nice and peaceful way Kes would die. That is depresssing.

I can agree about that. I find that scenario very depressing and more worthy a mediocre, third-rate soap opera than Star Trek.

However, if that would have been the reason for Kes's "dismissal", I'm sure that those in charge would have mentioned it instead of coming up with those pathetic excuses they did come up with.

After all, there were hints for prolonging her lifespan.

Would not the prolonging her lifespan be a scenario from a soap opera too?

Sorry to say, her character was a doomed character that could not last the full seven years. In fairness, Kes and Neelix were the last characters from the first season that did not make the show work. Unless you really wanted to see seven years like the first season.

IMO I think Neelix worked better once Kes left because they intergrated all her best personality qualities into him. His jealousy & stubborn streak were gone and he became a more compassionate character.

I think it makes the show "feel" more natural by not having everyone that joined Voyagers crew make the entire journey to Earth. For Kes & Neelix, it shows growth and the fact they're now secure enough to be independant, while no longer needing to use Voyager's crew as a crutch.

 

[Ezri II]

IMO I think Neelix worked better once Kes left because they intergrated all her best personality qualities into him. His jealousy & stubborn streak were gone and he became a more compassionate character.

I think it makes the show "feel" more natural by not having everyone that joined Voyagers crew make the entire journey to Earth. For Kes & Neelix, it shows growth and the fact they're now secure enough to be independant, while no longer needing to use Voyager's crew as a crutch.

Kes had more character flaws then Neelix and I will support that idea. If Neelix left the show and we had to deal with Kes alone her character would not improve.

Was debating with myself who was the better character, Kes v Ezri and thinking about it with myself and others. Have to say Kes was the weaker character. As Kes as a character was flawed to a point it could not improve. The writters were free to bring in a character from the other side and they willfully gave us a weaker character called Kes.

 

[Guy Gardener]

If it was so important that Kes and Neelix grow old together and die in each others wrinkled arms, and it's so hard to expand Kes' life expectancy, then why didn't they just shorten Nelix's life span? I mean he was looking at another 30 to 50 years of golden years after she passed on... 50 years without your one true love to rub your feet and tell you that your whiskers are pretty? Not a life worth living, surely?