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Kelvin Timeline all but confirmed

Okay. But what is Star Trek? And be careful how you answer because, with any definition you give, I'm pretty confident--in the 700+ hours of Trek--I can find one that breaks it.

Unless the job I'm hired for is to come up with ideas for a new Star Trek series and I pitch a show about pre-warp, Feudal Klingons and their constant in-fighting between houses in the vein of Game of Thrones.

Until your show/film series/whatever starts getting criticized for being safe, homogenized mediocrity.

And what "audience" are we talking about exactly? This thread is evidence that there's no such thing as a unified audience whose tastes and idea of what a product is supposed to be are all in perfect alignment.

If you create something, even under a proprietary trademark or license, you are the true/pure creator and originator. That's why we have credits.

And here's the problem: what exactly constitutes a symbolic representation? The possibilities are just about infinite.

Pretentious bullshit. Really, look no further than the last 60 years of "alternative" popular music. Or the recent boom in the indie gaming industry.

All created work is original. If it isn't, than it isn't created work. It's plagiarized work. Ownership is a different matter and one beyond the scope of this thread. But it too, at least within the ground of Star Trek has been consistently inconsistent.

.These criticisms pertain to the quality of a work and not the validity of its creation. Those two things are often confused, but they are not the same thing.

The reverse side of that coin is when someone says "It's good, but it's not Star Trek." It's an extremely presumptive and audacious thing to say and it annoys the fuck out of me.

No such thing as a "horrible" mistake. And mistakes are part of the creative process. The fact you don't seem to understand that might be the crux of the issue.

And yet I can almost guarantee you there's a painting in a gallery out there somewhere where the artists used the crackly mess to great effect.

A young painter might try this once only to have it end in disaster. It would certainly be a memorable experience One she would learn from. On the other hand, she might look at her messy canvas and wonder what might happen if she did it broken layers, leaving months of drying time in between Perhaps breaking the oil up with a knife, sort of like a sidewalk--allowing it to harden and bleed throw where she wants it. After some trial and error, she might come up with something wonderful. Or just more messy goo. Either way, it's her act of creation. And it wouldn't happen had someone told her "No. You can't do that."

Similarly, I bet half the trendy chefs across the world all have a favorite dish that mixes two ingredients that "shouldn't be mixed together" and go against all conventional culinary wisdom. I bet you most of them stumbled upon this deliciousness when their parents let them run amok in the kitchen as youngsters.

I think the perfect example of this practice is a guy like Brannon. He threw all this crazy shit at the wall, over and over and Rick never told him to stop or no or can't. Sometimes it worked: Blowing up the Enterprise over and over and then Fraiser. Sometimes I didn't: Hashtag lizards. Point is Rick still let him keep trying.

And certainly there were rules. There are always rules. But the issue is how and when they become intrusive. I can assure you, Braga wasn't worried about canon when he was pitching Lizard Rob and Kate Plus Eight.

All shows have sets of rules. The "show bible" as its usually called. However, most show-runners try to keep the bibles as small or simple as possible.

If you were to go an ask a group of staff writers to choose between a show with a few pages or a big-ass tome (given all other variables being equal), they'd almost always choose the former.

Think of it like the "rules" or defining aspects of a show are each a circle on a Venn diagram. Ideally, you'd like an idea to set within as much of the intersection as possible. However, a good production staff with accept an idea--provided its of good quality and marketable--even if it only sits within one of those outlying circles.

The problem with canon though, is it adds circles upon circles to the diagram. And it's completely unnecessary.

The thing with canon is its an artificial construct, even in real life. To chart the "canon" of humanity would be impossible because it's so muddled by preconception and bias. So why does a TV show need to be held to such a standard?

Even the concept of self or "head" canon shows that it's different for everyone, such that it's potentially infinite. To that end, it has no real weight. Because each person only remembers certain episodes or plot points, even sometimes falsely remembering something. Some people choose to ignore certain things, or accept parts of the "soft canon."

Even if there was a special CBS custodian of all things Star Trek canon, what bits does he choose to accept and reject, especially in cases of contradictory elements (of which, there are many)?

And having said custodian sit in the writers room squelching ideas as they crop up is suffocating creativity at its core.

Shrug, this is one of those agree to disagree things. I don't think someone who knows what story has already been established is a custodian. I don't think much of what passes for contemporary or modern art is actually any good, or in many cases art, without delving into what is officially known as 'art bollocks'. I don't think the indie games scene is actually that decent at all at the moment, particularly in the art direction areas....there's a whole bunch of places where my opinion differs, not least where I talk about specific experiences in the arts in my life, where I know for a fact the arguments against following certain rules in the name of having creative freedom were outright excuse and lies...it's not pretentious if you've seen someone turn up late for a class, miss the model, draw a random girl and then cover the catch-up with art bs, it's not pretentious if you have sat through someone argue against grammar or the correct way to write prose dialogue for thirty minutes...but you know it's because they haven't bothered learning how to do it right.
And no such thing as a bad mistake in creativity? It's all experimentation...well, bring it back to Trek...the effects in V? The casting and costuming on Code of Honor? That second one at least could have done with a handy dose of someone saying 'no' and some people listening.
So yeah, I hear you, but frankly, I don't agree.
 
You are absolutely correct. When it comes to art, rules are made to be broken, so to speak.

The same argument I heard from a girl trying to glue used coffee ground to a bit of construction fencing she had 'liberated' from somewhere it was probably doing a better job. She asked how she could stick it. I suggested a glue, and said if she wanted it to stick she would need to clean the fencing a bit, because otherwise she's sticking stuff to dirt and it all fell off. Creativity, rules made to be broken, she likes the dirt...and a mess before being stuck in in the bin. Some rules are a bit more than arbitrary things...some of them are simply how things work. It's obvious when an artist plays with composition or perspective to create an effect, and obvious when they just haven't learnt them because 'rules man' in the first place. It's the difference between good cubism and just a really bad, lazy drawing. There's a difference between blowing up Vulcan for a reason justified well in your narrative, and blowing it up because 'canon man...make a statement.' And the jury is pretty much still out on that last one, particularly with the execution.
 
I don't know, but it sure seems important to you that it's not the Prime timeline.

I've already committed to watching the show regardless. But when one starts reimagining the visuals, I tend to treat it as a reboot. The fact that Kurtzman comes across as a bit evasive, and the fact that he was part of the "Cumberbatch isn't Khan" committee, just has me doubting how committed they really are to the Prime timeline.

What exactly is the litmus test for it being "Prime" anyway? How far can they push changes before people begin to question their commitment? Or after the Abrams films, are some folks so desperate for it to be the comfort food they know that they will simply accept any changes as long as they are told it is "Prime"?
 
Hopefully this doesn't sound like a stupid question, but are we even sure Kurtzman and/or Fuller know of the term “Prime Universe”? Despite what Kurtzman says in this interview my guess is still that the authors don't really care about which timeline it is set in. They want it to be a Star Trek series and I'm sure that's what we are going to get.

As for the “Cumberbatch isn't Khan” thing: Wasn't the idea not to spoilt the fact that John Harrison was Khan? I don't want to argue about whether it was a particularly good twist (I personally think it wasn't), but they lied about it, because they genuinely wanted a surprised audience.

Which is why I don't understand the comparison to what Kurtzman says about Discovery here. Why should the timeline the show is set in be any surprise, twist or spoiler? What reason could there be to lie about any of this?
 
Hopefully this doesn't sound like a stupid question, but are we even sure Kurtzman and/or Fuller know of the term “Prime Universe”?

Kurtzman has been dealing with fans and Orci since 2006, I find it hard to believe he wouldn't know the term. I could be wrong, of course.

Which is why I don't understand the comparison to what Kurtzman says about Discovery here. Why should the timeline the show is set in be any surprise, twist or spoiler?

Since we know very little of the plot, the timeline could somehow play into a surprise, twist or spoiler.
 
Hopefully this doesn't sound like a stupid question, but are we even sure Kurtzman and/or Fuller know of the term “Prime Universe”?
Well Nimoy is credited as Spock Prime in the 2009 movie, so I'm assuming it was the writers who came up with that term.
 
I'm still trying to figure out what the mentioned event that is supose to play a important role in the show is going to be. I can see why they might want to keep that a secret.

This event must have been a vague reference if we nerds haven't figured it out by now. Vague references of course opens the door to both prime and 3rd universe possibilities.

Another possibility I wonder about is maybe a alternate universe that intersects with the prime universe much in the way the mirror universe episodes did. I think many of us have gone with the idea that the new klingons are from the past but what if they are simply from a alternate universe instead?

Maybe they will go full "Parallels" and have aliens and ships coming out of all sorts of different universes. The multiverse is a past reference from a Trek show so maybe that counts towards what they have said.

Jason

Just had and additional thought in regards to my alternate universe idea. What if the Shentzou is from the prime universe and Discovery is from another universe were klingons help design it because it sort of does have some klingon features. It's possible that we could have a prime universe crew working with a 3rd universe crew using 3rd universe tech and looks.

Jason
 
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I'm still trying to figure out what the mentioned event that is supose to play a important role in the show is going to be. I can see why they might want to keep that a secret
That was an early Fuller statement which may have been superceded by now. There are some rumours there was quite a substantial change in direction after he left the project, so the reference may have been lost.

Hopefully this doesn't sound like a stupid question, but are we even sure Kurtzman and/or Fuller know of the term “Prime Universe”? Despite what Kurtzman says in this interview my guess is still that the authors don't really care about which timeline it is set in. They want it to be a Star Trek series and I'm sure that's what we are going to get.

As for the “Cumberbatch isn't Khan” thing: Wasn't the idea not to spoilt the fact that John Harrison was Khan? I don't want to argue about whether it was a particularly good twist (I personally think it wasn't), but they lied about it, because they genuinely wanted a surprised audience.

Which is why I don't understand the comparison to what Kurtzman says about Discovery here. Why should the timeline the show is set in be any surprise, twist or spoiler? What reason could there be to lie about any of this?
Agreed about the Khan thing, they were just trying to hide a spoiler that was a bit too obvious so they needed to flat out lie when people figured it out.

As for 'prime' universe, I've suspected since Fuller first talked about timelines that all they mean is that it's not the Kelvin timeline - i.e., no Nero, no cadet/Captain Kirk, etc. That's how I still see their statements - it's Prime only in that it isn't Kelvin, so it's Prime by default. In reality, if you are the sort of person who cares about continuity of 60s design and so on it's probably easier on the blood pressure to think of it as a third timeline.
 
Looking at "Mirror Mirror"'s posts is like looking into a mirror (no pun intended). I used to post just like them in this thread.

But I just don't care that much anymore about what timeline it is in, I'm with siding with BillJ on this.
 
Looking at "Mirror Mirror"'s posts is like looking into a mirror (no pun intended). I used to post just like them in this thread.

But I just don't care that much anymore about what timeline it is in, I'm with siding with BillJ on this.

Eight years ago I was much like the folks who are die-hard "this all has to fit together or else it is meaningless" canonistas. I was likely much worse.

Then the Abrams films came along. They were good, but they changed things... I was spitting fire. Loved the movie... saw it four times in the theaters, but then I'd think about things (or really not think) and be spitting fire mad all over again. I had a conflict in my brain (high blood pressure and PTSD didn't help matters) and had to change how I saw things. Star Trek wasn't some virgin princess. It was a living breathing entity that could and should change. But, I need a story reason for the changes beyond, it is a different time. So I intend to treat Discovery as a distinct, but still "Star Trek" entity.

All I need is for it to be internally consistent.
 
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Eight years ago I was much like the folks who are die-hard "this all has to fit together or else it is meaningless" canonistas. I was likely much worse.

Then the Abrams films came along. They were good, but they changed things... I was spitting fire. Loved the movie... saw it four times in the theaters, but then I'd think about things (or really not think) and be spitting fire mad all over again. I had a conflict in my brain (high blood pressure and PTSD didn't help matters) and had to change how I saw things. Star Trek wasn't some virgin princess. It was a living breathing entity that could and should change. But, I need a story reason for the changes beyond, it is a different time. So I intend to treat Discovery as a distinct, but still "Star Trek" entity.

All I need is for it to be internally consistent.

You know I kind of wonder if all the canon stuff would have been less of a issue if Trek had did a closure movie like I have suggested in the "future trek" forum. If that era had been given a proper send off I wonder if it would have been easier for people to move on to new type of Trek shows and universes.

Jason
 
But they had rank stripes in "The Cage", which Discovery is supposed to be current with. A hundred years prior gave them wiggle room that they really don't have being current with a prior production.

Again, I'm not doubting that I'm insane. But it is a sticking point for me in regards to it being "Prime".

The devil is in the details. :devil:
The first episode of 'Discovery' takes place 2 to 3 years AFTER the events depicted in "The Cage" (Per Spock's comments in TOS "The Menagerie" of 'events 13 years ago.') Hell, TNG had different crew uniforms by the 3rd year.
 
The same argument I heard from a girl trying to glue used coffee ground to a bit of construction fencing she had 'liberated' from somewhere it was probably doing a better job. She asked how she could stick it. I suggested a glue, and said if she wanted it to stick she would need to clean the fencing a bit, because otherwise she's sticking stuff to dirt and it all fell off. Creativity, rules made to be broken, she likes the dirt...and a mess before being stuck in in the bin. Some rules are a bit more than arbitrary things...some of them are simply how things work. It's obvious when an artist plays with composition or perspective to create an effect, and obvious when they just haven't learnt them because 'rules man' in the first place. It's the difference between good cubism and just a really bad, lazy drawing. There's a difference between blowing up Vulcan for a reason justified well in your narrative, and blowing it up because 'canon man...make a statement.' And the jury is pretty much still out on that last one, particularly with the execution.
I should clarify, then. The history of art demonstrates that, for every "rule," a new artistic genius comes along who improves art by violating that rule. Just because rules are made to be broken when it comes to art, it does not follow that any breaking of the rules produces good art. All that means is that broken rules do not necessarily lead to bad art. What @CorporalClegg said to begin with stands.
 
I should clarify, then. The history of art demonstrates that, for every "rule," a new artistic genius comes along who improves art by violating that rule. Just because rules are made to be broken when it comes to art, it does not follow that any breaking of the rules produces good art. All that means is that broken rules do not necessarily lead to bad art. What @CorporalClegg said to begin with stands.
And it also doesn't follow that having rules makes bad art. Limitations can make very good art.
 
And it also doesn't follow that having rules makes bad art. Limitations can make very good art.

Depends on the limitations. Not enough money can lead to creative solutions, being forbidden of doing something because of 50 (or 30 or 15) year old canon can rob the audience of something interesting.
 
Depends on the limitations. Not enough money can lead to creative solutions, being forbidden of doing something because of 50 (or 30 or 15) year old canon can rob the audience of something interesting.
I highly doubt someone is "forbidding" something. I think of those canon topics can create limitations as well that can also create very good art.

Also, interesting does not automatically equal good art.
 
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