Kasidy Yates did nothing illegal

[DonIago]

Petty crimes are a possibility, but with little reason to steal it would have to be someone with kleptomania. That or other physical or mental issues are also unlikely because Chakotay is choosing these people to be members of his crew, so he's not going to pick anyone who is a liability.

Given that Voyager was supposed to have some resource constraints (replicator rations perhaps being the most notable example), theft doesn't seem all that improbable amongst the morally compromised.

I also think the Maquis may have been far more willing to embrace people who may have had physical or mental challenges than Starfleet. Chakotay didn't necessarily have the luxury of turning people down in hopes of getting the best of the best.

 

[UssGlenn]

I also think the Maquis may have been far more willing to embrace people who may have had physical or mental challenges than Starfleet. Chakotay didn't necessarily have the luxury of turning people down in hopes of getting the best of the best

I think just the opposite. The Maquis are still a military resistance. If anything they would be less egalitarian than Starfleet. They have to make hard decisions about the best and most effective use of resources.

 

[kkt]

I'm still a little bothered by the implication that Janeway effectively conscripted the Maquis, and presumably would have done the same to the Borg children and Naomi Wildman. Presumably on Voyager there are no free rides?

Which is to say that the show took the easy way out and depicted everyone who wasn't Starfleet as being willing and able to serve, but I don't think that's how life works.

Janeway was apparently willing to lock up Suder in a cabin for, presumably, the rest of his life, but what would she have done if it turned out some of the Maquis were ill-suited to be Starfleet because of mental illness or other issues, or were causing problems but not on the level of violent crimes? She can't exactly confine everyone to quarters, and while offering to off-load anyone who doesn't seem happy on the ship seems like a humane option, it seems rather less humane when Voyager is in the middle of Kazon or Vidiian or Borg space.

I'm not saying there was a good option; just that it bothers me a little that the show didn't even take a moment to ponder the question.

If I remember right (and I freely admit it's quite a few years since I watched Voyager) the Maquis crew didn't have much of a choice. Their ship was in even worse shape than Voyager and they'd be lucky to find an inhabitable planet to crashland on, let alone making it back to the Alpha Quadrant. Voyager was also short of crew, and many of the the Maquis had Starfleet training which would be an asset rather than the constant liability that it would be to try to keep them under arrest for years on end. Janeway could have ditched them, but that would be inhumane, and she did have orders to bring the Maquis back to the Federation for trial.

 

[Farscape One]

I think just the opposite. The Maquis are still a military resistance. If anything they would be less egalitarian than Starfleet. They have to make hard decisions about the best and most effective use of resources.

In "MELD", Torres and Chakotay made it a point to say that they took on whoever they could because they didn't have a great deal of people to begin with. (In the ready room, when Torres says Suder was the one on duty at the time he killed Darwin in engineering. Chakotay didn't mention his instinct during his initial crew evaluation of the Maquis because he didn't want to make it harder for them than necessary to adjust to the ship.)

If I remember right (and I freely admit it's quite a few years since I watched Voyager) the Maquis crew didn't have much of a choice. Their ship was in even worse shape than Voyager and they'd be lucky to find an inhabitable planet to crashland on, let alone making it back to the Alpha Quadrant. Voyager was also short of crew, and many of the the Maquis had Starfleet training which would be an asset rather than the constant liability that it would be to try to keep them under arrest for years on end. Janeway could have ditched them, but that would be inhumane, and she did have orders to bring the Maquis back to the Federation for trial.

The Maquis ship was destroyed in the pilot. (Chakotay rammed it into the large Kazon ship.)

 

[Guy Gardener]

If I remember right (and I freely admit it's quite a few years since I watched Voyager) the Maquis crew didn't have much of a choice. Their ship was in even worse shape than Voyager and they'd be lucky to find an inhabitable planet to crashland on, let alone making it back to the Alpha Quadrant. Voyager was also short of crew, and many of the the Maquis had Starfleet training which would be an asset rather than the constant liability that it would be to try to keep them under arrest for years on end. Janeway could have ditched them, but that would be inhumane, and she did have orders to bring the Maquis back to the Federation for trial.

Chakotay rammed his ship, The Val Jean, into Caretakers Array.

It's Stardust.

20 Maquis in a shuttle or Neeelix's ship, the Baxial, could easily take the Kazon mining colony on Ocampa, then a couple Kazon city ships, and either build an empire or figure out how to fabricate some new engines that can get them home in less than one life time.

 

[Paul Weaver]

Suder was a murderer.

Neelix and Kes weren’t starfleet. If a marquis who otherwise wasn’t a security risk
I’m sure they would have been allowed to do whatever. Maybe limited access to secure areas, limited access to resources like quarters, holodeck etc, but on the whole it would have been ok.

They’d have been bored out of their skulls. I’d have liked to have seen a few examples though. The Enterprise had families on board.

Ultimately though I suspect regulations allow and expect anyone on a starship to be conscriptable for the good of the ship. They could have got off whenever - explicitly shown in The 37s, but with the exception of Seska that didn’t happen.

 

[DonIago]

Suder was a murderer.

Neelix and Kes weren’t starfleet. If a marquis who otherwise wasn’t a security risk
I’m sure they would have been allowed to do whatever. Maybe limited access to secure areas, limited access to resources like quarters, holodeck etc, but on the whole it would have been ok.

They’d have been bored out of their skulls. I’d have liked to have seen a few examples though. The Enterprise had families on board.

Ultimately though I suspect regulations allow and expect anyone on a starship to be conscriptable for the good of the ship. They could have got off whenever - explicitly shown in The 37s, but with the exception of Seska that didn’t happen.

This isn't the sense I've gotten from watching the show. It seemed as though if you weren't willing to wear the uniform (Neelix and Kes notwithstanding) then there wasn't a place for you.

 

[kkt]

Suder was a murderer.

Neelix and Kes weren’t starfleet. If a marquis who otherwise wasn’t a security risk
I’m sure they would have been allowed to do whatever. Maybe limited access to secure areas, limited access to resources like quarters, holodeck etc, but on the whole it would have been ok.

They’d have been bored out of their skulls. I’d have liked to have seen a few examples though. The Enterprise had families on board.

Ultimately though I suspect regulations allow and expect anyone on a starship to be conscriptable for the good of the ship. They could have got off whenever - explicitly shown in The 37s, but with the exception of Seska that didn’t happen.

Voyager wasn't a Galaxy class. Voyager was made for short missions, not multiyear, and not having lots of extra quarters was part of that.

I still don't think they were conscripted. Joining Voyager was the best option for the Maquis on board. Janeway probably had the authority to grant them commissions, or reinstate the commissions of those who had been in Starfleet.

 

[Farscape One]

Voyager wasn't a Galaxy class. Voyager was made for short missions, not multiyear, and not having lots of extra quarters was part of that.

I still don't think they were conscripted. Joining Voyager was the best option for the Maquis on board. Janeway probably had the authority to grant them commissions, or reinstate the commissions of those who had been in Starfleet.

But it certainly looks like conscription.

The Maquis that never went to the Academy, for example. They were still expected to wear the uniform and follow Starfleet regulations. I agree with Janeway that Voyager isn't a passenger ship and if you are aboard her, you should be doing something to help out. But that doesn't mean you should be forced to wear the uniform of an organization you might have a major issue with or follow regulations that you never agreed to.

There should have been some kind of leeway regarding the Maquis in terms of this. Or adjustment of some Starfleet regulations.

At least at first. Then over time, as the Maquis work more alongside everyone, they transition more to actual Starfleet rules.

"LEARNING CURVE" sort of touched on the idea but went too hard into MAKING those 4 into Starfleet personnel.

 

[DonIago]

^And then, to add insult to arguable injury, they were never seen again. What would have happened if someone just proved to not be compatible with Starfleet regulations, and unlike Seven or a handful of other people wasn't lucky enough to become Janeway's personal pet project (though seeing one of her pet projects prove to be a failure would have been something worth exploring as well)?

What if Seska was really just a Bajoran who felt Janeway was making poor decisions and was vocal about it but not to the point of conspiring against Voyager? Lock her in the brig? Throw her in the cabin next to Suder's?

The show never really addressed the fact that some people simply aren't cut out to be shining models of Starfleet's finest.

I would have watched an episode where Janeway ends up trapped on a planet with a Maquis crewman or such who isn't afraid to tell Janeway that while they respect everything Janeway's done, they don't agree with it, just to see Janeway be confronted with someone who was neither willing to simply become a little good Starfleet officer nor was a violent sociopath or traitor.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

Both DS9 and Voyager faced directives in their first year to abandon (or at least bring to an extreme minimum) stories that formed central parts of the pilot, the device meant to establish the parameters of the respective series. No more Bajoran politics. No Maquis conflict.

How both series dealt with their respective directives is telling. The Maquis element is minor. Maybe it came up at a bit of a personal grievance. The best story after season one is probably Worst Case Scenario, but that's really about Seska, Voyager's discount Garak. DS9 replaced politics with religion, and then used religion to talk about politics. The Kai wants to be prime minister. The people are on the brink of legislating social restructuring. The clergy is is negotiating with the Cardassians and the Dominion.

To put the cherry on top, DS9 ended up telling four more stories about the Maquis--Defiant, For the Cause, For the Uniform, Blaze of Glory--more meaningful than anything Voyager did after its pilot.

That said, Voyager dropped the ball when it came to the Maquis. It was an essential element of the pilot. It didn't mean the series should be a seven-year running fight. But taking the guard rails off, there were many different types of stories that could be told. Learning Curve was somewhat disappointing, but I feel it did something by placing new performance expectations on the Maquis. They are part of a hierarchical organization: ok, can they pursue professional advancement? Can they find opportunities to study on the Voyager to become actual Starfleet, a sort of satellite program? Were they musicians? Were some of them farmers and gardeners, like Eddington, who could have helped grow food on the ship? When I referenced BSG above, I was thinking about the epsiode, "Blood on the Scales:" Adama and Roslin ally with the rogue Cylons, and Hatch freaks out. In Voyager's "Scorpion," we saw a rather reasonable critique from Chakotay (for once), but what about the Maquis? How should a people, who although flawed, see themselves as being highly principled, feel about helping the Borg--and help them make a genetic weapon?

 

[Crewman6]

Both DS9 and Voyager faced directives in their first year to abandon (or at least bring to an extreme minimum) stories that formed central parts of the pilot, the device meant to establish the parameters of the respective series. No more Bajoran politics. No Maquis conflict.

Pretty sure the DS9 directive came later, since the Homecoming/Circle/Siege arc kicked off Season 2 and was obviously entirely about Bajoran politics.

I don't mind that they moved away from that. The Bajor angle had some good episodes but was a little on the dull side. But it was never abandoned completely, as the Kai became a major figure in the show and, while she was a "religious" figure, her focus was never really about religion or the show's budding spiritual angle. She was always a political operator.

That said, Voyager dropped the ball when it came to the Maquis. It was an essential element of the pilot. It didn't mean the series should be a seven-year running fight. But taking the guard rails off, there were many different types of stories that could be told. Learning Curve was somewhat disappointing, but I feel it did something by placing new performance expectations on the Maquis. They are part of a hierarchical organization: ok, can they pursue professional advancement? Can they find opportunities to study on the Voyager to become actual Starfleet, a sort of satellite program? Were they musicians? Were some of them farmers and gardeners, like Eddington, who could have helped grow food on the ship? When I referenced BSG above, I was thinking about the epsiode, "Blood on the Scales:" Adama and Roslin ally with the rogue Cylons, and Hatch freaks out. In Voyager's "Scorpion," we saw a rather reasonable critique from Chakotay (for once), but what about the Maquis? How should a people, who although flawed, see themselves as being highly principled, feel about helping the Borg--and help them make a genetic weapon?

In both cases, the shows' respective premises were baked into the series to give the writers workarounds for Roddenberry's "no conflict" rule amongst the Starfleet characters. Sure, Gene, we'll make half of the characters on each show non-Starfleet. But, as we've all said, in Voyager's case, they ignored that almost at the jump. They put the Maquis characters into Starfleet uniforms and almost never looked back.

 

[Ragitsu]

When there is a limited runtime and limited amount of episodes per season, there have to be compromises; there cannot be unlimited additions. Do we want to focus on seeing this hitherto unseen Delta Quadrant or...do we want internal conflict? What works for one show might be a poor fit for another.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

When there is a limited runtime and limited amount of episodes per season, there have to be compromises; there cannot be unlimited additions. Do we want to focus on seeing this hitherto unseen Delta Quadrant or...do we want internal conflict? What works for one show might be a poor fit for another.

Holy Fuck! There were 172 Voyager episodes, and from the tenor of 50 Year MIssion, they could always use more stories.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

Pretty sure the DS9 directive came later, since the Homecoming/Circle/Siege arc kicked off Season 2 and was obviously entirely about Bajoran politics.

Robert Hewitt Wolfe joked on 7th Rule that it was awkward to do the Trilogy despite the directive. Perhaps it came after writing, but before filming.

In both cases, the shows' respective premises were baked into the series to give the writers workarounds for Roddenberry's "no conflict" rule amongst the Starfleet characters. Sure, Gene, we'll make half of the characters on each show non-Starfleet. But, as we've all said, in Voyager's case, they ignored that almost at the jump. They put the Maquis characters into Starfleet uniforms and almost never looked back.

Nonetheless, they were baked into the premises of the show, designed to create a dimension of conflict. What happens when you remove them? On Deep Space Nine, you give the finger to the studio. On Voyager, you put up the guard rails.

 

[Farscape One]

DS9 was left largely alone, which is why they could give the studio the finger at times.

And it was to its benefit it was left alone.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

DS9 was left largely alone, which is why they could give the studio the finger at times.

And it was to its benefit it was left alone.

After a certain point, yes, which I believe was after the beginning of season 4.

 

[Crewman6]

Robert Hewitt Wolfe joked on 7th Rule that it was awkward to do the Trilogy despite the directive. Perhaps it came after writing, but before filming.

That's interesting, but, yeah, the timing seems odd. It's not like they did all that much Bajoran political intrigue in the first season. The Circle trilogy was pretty much the highpoint.

Nonetheless, they were baked into the premises of the show, designed to create a dimension of conflict. What happens when you remove them? On Deep Space Nine, you give the finger to the studio. On Voyager, you put up the guard rails.

Heh, yeah. Voyager tried to play it as safe as humanly possible. Deep Space Nine was taking risks almost no one else on TV was doing at the time.

You can forgive the Voyager writers....a little. As they had much more scrutiny and much more oversight, being on the nascent UPN network with suites full of terrified network execs that DS9 didn't have. But the show's writer was certainly deficient in many, many areas and you can't chalk all of that up to network meddling.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

That's interesting, but, yeah, the timing seems odd. It's not like they did all that much Bajoran political intrigue in the first season. The Circle trilogy was pretty much the highpoint.

If you are interested, I think its the episode of T7R with both Behr and Wolfe, where they are talking about the origins of the Dominion. Behr talks about how PIller cut vacations short so that the writers could work on his Circle idea, and Wolfe interjects that it was awkward to do when the studio wanted less of it. If I remember correctly, the writers during the era got two weeks only of vacation, and that was probably in April or May (RDM recounts coming back from vacation to see Generations filmed on the 1701-D bridge, then reported to DS9; that was filmed mostly in April and May). That means Season 1 was still being broadcast when the writers reconvened, with Duet and Hands of the Prophets still not having aired. Filming season 2 started in July. There was plenty of opportunity for Paramount to express an opinion, but not enough for the writers to change course.

 

[AntonyF]

What if Seska was really just a Bajoran who felt Janeway was making poor decisions and was vocal about it but not to the point of conspiring against Voyager? Lock her in the brig? Throw her in the cabin next to Suder's?

The show never really addressed the fact that some people simply aren't cut out to be shining models of Starfleet's finest.

I would have watched an episode where Janeway ends up trapped on a planet with a Maquis crewman or such who isn't afraid to tell Janeway that while they respect everything Janeway's done, they don't agree with it, just to see Janeway be confronted with someone who was neither willing to simply become a little good Starfleet officer nor was a violent sociopath or traitor.

All of this is the juicy stuff that the premise set up and never delivered. It's sad.