Justin Roiland looking at 7 years in prison for domestic violence.

[Jayson1]

Nope. Never said that.

What I did say is that when you have a white guy playing a black character who is only written by white guys, that's not "the real thing." That's a bunch of white guys' fantasy of a black guy.

Having representation on the writing staff and in the cast is a moral obligation. That doesn't mean that only black people can write a black character. But it does mean you can't only have white guys running the show.



It's almost like maybe they should have people who are not white both writing the show and acting in it!



"Hey, your show should not just be made by white people and should not only be about white people" makes perfect sense unless you think "white" is the default setting for the human species.

I agree diversity is a good thing. But even with a diverse writing staff if the show was created by a white person you still got one person at the top whose voice carries the most weight. In this case it would be Seth McFarlande. It still doesn't matter though who voices Cleveland.

You measure progress in terms overall representation in the industry and equal pay for those with comparable experience within each area of jobs. Like if you have 50 writers with 4 to 6 years experience who are white and lets say 46 writers for non-white writers with 4 to 6 years experience then the overall pay should more or less be equal. You can't measure progress going from one specific show to the next because their are always specific issues within each show that effects the metrics.

 

[Sci]

I agree diversity is a good thing. But even with a diverse writing staff if the show was created by a white person you still got one person at the top whose voice carries the most weight. In this case it would be Seth McFarlande. It still doesn't matter though who voices Cleveland.

Yes, Family Guy is ultimately the result of a white guy's creative vision. No one is saying that there isn't room for a white creator to have a creative vision that encompasses characters from other backgrounds. What they are saying is, if you're from a dominant in-group and your creative vision encompasses from marginalized communities, you need to have diversity incorporated into your creative process, so that you have collaborators from those communities collaborating with you, whom you listen to, and so that you're not preventing actors from marginalized communities from getting already-scarce jobs.

You can't measure progress going from one specific show to the next because their are always specific issues within each show that effects the metrics.

I'm not interested in "measuring progress," whatever the fuck that means. I'm saying, when a white guy hires a white guy to pretend he's a black guy, that's not "the real thing," and that white creators have a moral obligation to have diversity in collaborators both behind the scenes and in performance.

 

[Jayson1]

Measuring progress is like the most important thing in the fight for progress. How else do you know if things are getting better unless you have a means of testing it? I know it's kind of hard because people clearly can't measure ones heart but their are ways of seeing if things are improving in society for all people. Otherwise your just left with individual situations that can either be a mainstream experience or a outlier.

Also I do think art is better when you find away of getting input from others in collaboration but generally speaking and Apu was a good example of that on The Simpsons when they improved the character over the years to a point where Apu was probably one of the shows more well rounded characters. None of this though has anything to do with the people voicing the characters

. It's the writers job to give characters more depth. Also Cleveland is something of a unique example in that I believe the actor might have been more of the characters creator than even Seth McFarlande. So in reality nobody would actually know more about the character in this case than the guy voicing him. He was based on a basketball partner of the actor who had a distinct accent.

 

[Turtletrekker]

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[Sci]

Measuring progress is like the most important thing in the fight for progress. How else do you know if things are getting better unless you have a means of testing it?

That is beyond the remit of this discussion. We're not talking about measuring all progress everywhere; we're talking about whether or not a white guy hiring a white guy to pretend to be a black guy is "the real thing" (it is not) and about the importance of diversity in both production and performance of collaborative artistic works.

Also I do think art is better when you find away of getting input from others in collaboration but generally speaking and Apu was a good example of that on The Simpsons when they improved the character over the years to a point where Apu was probably one of the shows more well rounded characters.

Funny how actual Indian Americans found Apu to be a deeply hurtful stereotype.

None of this though has anything to do with the people voicing the characters

Funny how actual people of color don't agree!

It's the writers job to give characters more depth. Also Cleveland is something of a unique example in that I believe the actor might have been more of the characters creator than even Seth McFarlande. So in reality nobody would actually know more about the character in this case than the guy voicing him. He was based on a basketball partner of the actor who had a distinct accent.

A white guy hiring a white guy to pretend he's a black guy in a country with a long history of white guys hiring white guys to pretend to be black guys to harmful effect.

Keep diggin' that hole, man.

 

[Jayson1]

Then how do you know if progress is happening? Equality is won by bringing a end to the generational wealth gap that was caused by slavery and the United States inability to properly help the former slaves get a path to true equality after the Civil War.

Reconstruction might have saved America but it failed to stop oppression. Thus you measure progress through jobs and income. Fix those problems and all the other problems all but go away. That is because all problems are solved by money in one way or another. Well money and love and kindness. Everything else is a side effect to things and people not benefiting from those 3 things.

 

[Sci]

Then how do you know if progress is happening?

Beyond the remit of this discussion. Stop changing the topic.

 

[Tuskin38]

Side note, Seth doesn't have a hand a creative hand in Family Guy or American dad anymore. By his own admission he just voices the characters now and rarely goes into the office, and hasn't since around 2010.

Looking at the list of EPs and producers, they all seem to be white except for one who Thai-American. But some of them don't have pictures on their Wiki pages, so I don't know.

 

[Jayson1]

That is beyond the remit of this discussion. We're not talking about measuring all progress everywhere; we're talking about whether or not a white guy hiring a white guy to pretend to be a black guy is "the real thing" (it is not) and about the importance of diversity in both production and performance of collaborative artistic works.



Funny how actual Indian Americans found Apu to be a deeply hurtful stereotype.



Funny how actual people of color don't agree!



A white guy hiring a white guy to pretend he's a black guy in a country with a long history of white guys hiring white guys to pretend to be black guys to harmful effect.

Keep diggin' that hole, man.

Why isn't the issue about progress everywhere? Also yes some people felt offended by Apu and some didn't. People have a good point that when Apu is the only representation then it looks bad but that issue is beyond the range of one character.

The Apu problem is actually a Hollywood problem in that it didn't have many Indian Characters who were well rounded. The reason why a one note white character who is a cliche redneck works would be due to the fact that this one note character didn't represent all white people on tv. That is the basic rule for all representation when it comes to art.

You want to fix the problem you need more representation that is filled with well rounded characters. But you think somehow putting a end to a single character created for the sole point of jokes is somehow the real issue.

All it does is make liberals look like the modern moral prudes who don't get humor and don't even get the real problems because they can't stop focusing on nonsense like fictional characters and naughty words. Yet when it comes to censorship or war or corporations they are out to lunch because those things don't go trending or feel to complicated to solve by typing on a phone.

 

[Sci]

Why isn't the issue about progress everywhere?

Why isn't it the price of tea in China?

People have a good point that when Apu is the only representation then it looks bad

Like how Cleveland was the only semi-prominent black guy on Family Guy for most of its run?

The Apu problem is actually a Hollywood problem in that it didn't have many Indian Characters who were well rounded. The reason why a one note white character who is a cliche redneck works would be due to the fact that this one note character didn't represent all white people on tv. That is the basic rule for all representation when it comes to art.

That is an entirely fair point, and that is indeed part of the problem. But the deeper problem is making sure that your characters are not mere stereotypes. A really reductive hypothetical example would be: you can have all the sophisticated, well-rounded, nuanced black characters you want, but if you're a white creator and one of your black characters fulfills offensive stereotypes, then that's going to outweigh all the rest. Having more than one token character from a marginalized community is definitely a good thing, but it's not enough in and of itself.

All it does is make liberals look like the modern moral prudes who don't get humor

No, it makes people who insist that verbal blackface is okay look like assholes.

 

[Turtletrekker]

Keep diggin' that hole, man.

At this rate, he will awaken a balrog in no time.

 

[Jayson1]

I disagree but I don't want to fight over this stuff anymore. It's to depressing with what happened with Locutus. I don't really want to fight about anything right now.

 

[publiusr]

Then too, I have heard Melissa Harris-Perry say she thought more of Norman Lear’s programs than Tyler Perry’s work.

Speaking of work…the idea of that leaving one completely jobless likely doesn’t always make things better. Now Justin is out on the street where the rest of us have to deal with him. There are folks who have done worse and we are expected to look past that with “ban the box.”

We reward characters we act outrageously and then act surprised when it isn’t an act.

What to do indeed.

I think the same thing happened to Spacey…you can turn even more into the role you play. Lecturing folks just gets folks backs up…and I always thought the scared straight thing with youth could be a mistake.
When the cops and the crooks scare folks misbehaving…it might backfire. “Oh, so the whole world is my enemy after all.”

In The Republic…it was suggested that certain plays simply not be done due to any corrosive effect it might have… Maybe just go the other way—have folks who have a hard time pass through where the Justin’s can see them. When folks whisper…people lean in to hear…still small voice of the lord and all that.

So how do you handle things without writing people off?

 

[Sci]

Speaking of work…the idea of that leaving one completely jobless likely doesn’t always make things better. Now Justin is out on the street where the rest of us have to deal with him.

1) Roiland has had a very long and successful television career, and he's going to continue getting paid both residuals from his prior episodes and getting paid as co-creator of his shows. It's not like he will lack an income.

2) He's already "out on the streets with the rest of us." It's not like having a job meant he was not at liberty or not a threat to the public. He had these jobs when he allegedly committed these crimes.

3) The argument is not that he should never receive employment again. The argument is that employers in the entertainment industry should not hire him, because to do so is to give one of a scarce number of jobs to a violent misogynist that could have gone to an equally-talented entertainer who has not committed such crimes.

There are folks who have done worse and we are expected to look past that with “ban the box.”

And if Roiland is convicted and then serves his term, he can apply for a job at Baskin Robbins without needing to worry about "the box." Getting a second chance means getting the chance to support yourself, not the chance to become rich and famous again.

We reward characters we act outrageously and then act surprised when it isn’t an act.

Because the vast majority of the time, it is an act. Stephen King does not dress up as a clown and murder children in sewers. Anthony Hopkins is not a cannibal serial killer. Meryl Streep is not actually a genocide survivor.

I think the same thing happened to Spacey…you can turn even more into the role you play.

... no. That is not how acting works. And Spacey started his crimes long before he ever appeared in House of Cards.

 

[publiusr]

He was drawn to those roles…

On something a bit unrelated..lots of folks are bashed for being groomers, and yet the church is among the worst.

I remember one apologist said that the number of molestors inside the church was the same as outside. That made me angry of course—

Now there should be far less if their morality was as good as they think it is.

I would actually be more forgiving if the number had been greater—that’s mechanical…let priests marry…less of a prison/OZ environment. No vow of poverty means the local friar won’t steal the pie cooling in the window-sill.

But if the number is exactly the same…then whither the church? And if a believe in hellfire can’t stop bad behavior…then what can?

 

[fireproof78]

But if the number is exactly the same…then whither the church? And if a believe in hellfire can’t stop bad behavior…then what can?

Growing up in the church and finding that much of the behavior did not match stated beliefs, like what you note, or divorces being equal as the general population, left me with a lot of questions and investigation. What I, and some religious minded friends, have found is that the motivation of punishment is not as enduring as we were raised with, nor does the church encourage any other positive behaviors. What I found, if I may derail, is that motivation for change in behavior comes with honesty about one's deficits. In the church, there is little encouragement of honesty for current struggles, beyond very surface level. You have to work hard to connect with someone to provide that measure of authenticity in the relationship to feel you can actually say what you need. My wife and I still struggle with that and we've been married for almost 15 years. It isn't a destination but a journey to actually become freaking better.

 

[the G-man]

employers in the entertainment industry should not hire him, because to do so is to give one of a scarce number of jobs to a violent misogynist that could have gone to an equally-talented entertainer who has not committed such crimes.

Meanwhile, Alec Baldwin straight up killed a woman and has eight projects coming up.

 

[Sci]

Meanwhile, Alec Baldwin straight up killed a woman and has eight projects coming up.

Also a guy the entertainment industry should not hire!

 

[the G-man]

The guy who took over the role of Cleveland Brown from Mike Henry on Family Guy is indistinguishable as the character to my ears. It can be done.

The new guy playing Cleveland, Arif Zahir, sounds exactly the same to me. And its not just that he's a sound alike. He plays the part well. They did a good job casting him.

 

[Sci]

The new guy playing Cleveland, Arif Zahir, sounds exactly the same to me. And its not just that he's a sound alike. He plays the part well. They did a good job casting him.

Yeah, the idea that another actor can't give a performance that's of equal quality is... weird.