Justice League vs. Avengers

[Guy Gardener]

Hated it.

Obviously a pocket universe.

Probably as relevant as Transformers vs New Avengers.

 

[Bad Bishop]

While preparing JLA/Avengers, DC and Marvel supposedly discussed the possibility of each leaving one of their characters in the other publisher's universe for a year. But then lawyers got involved and the whole idea became unworkable. That's too bad. Imagine... Wonder Woman vs. Ultron or Captain America vs. The Clock King.
OK, they wouldn't waste Cap on such a loser villain.

 

[JM1776]

No, it mean that if a magician casts a spell it will affect Superman in the same way it affects everyone else. Thor is no magician. Being powered by magic is no different than being powered by solar radiation or gamma rays when its about strength or durability. Transmutation, mystic energy and mystical objects are a different story.

[Note that I did not make the comment to which Nerys Myk was responding. Thrall did.]

Quite right, Nerys Myk.

If Thor summons a storm and commands lightning down on Superman, for example, it will have little or no effect on the Man of Steel (depending on the writer), as it's a conventional attack brought to bear via magical means.

If, alternately, his hammer begins to glow with a lightning manifestation, it's mystical energy, and will likely have a much more profound effect.

 

[JM1776]

While preparing JLA/Avengers, DC and Marvel supposedly discussed the possibility of each leaving one of their characters in the other publisher's universe for a year.

That would have been so effin' cool.

 

[Guy Gardener]

While preparing JLA/Avengers, DC and Marvel supposedly discussed the possibility of each leaving one of their characters in the other publisher's universe for a year. But then lawyers got involved and the whole idea became unworkable. That's too bad. Imagine... Wonder Woman vs. Ultron or Captain America vs. The Clock King.
OK, they wouldn't waste Cap on such a loser villain.

What if it was the entire InJustice League and what if it was written by Giffen? If it was written by Giffen, that would mean major Glory and Guy gardner would call Cap a paranoid schitzophrenic who was imagining he was a cape in the DCU's WWII, because he obviously wasn't.

 

[darkwing_duck1]

Thor was beaten down because Busiek writes him as a bruiser with a club, not because such would occur if both brought their full power to bear. Did you notice how Thor simply waded into Superman's heat vision, rather than absorbing or even deflecting it with Mjolnir? Thor came straight at Superman, and employed nothing more than a bit of lightning—as if such is the sum total of his powers. Ridiculous, but not at all surprising coming from Busiek, whose claim to "love" Thor doesn't really ring true when you see how he writes him for Avengers. You want to see a genuine depiction of Thor's cosmic powers? Try Simonson, DeFalco, or Lee/Kirby—not Busiek.

Think about it: Have you ever seen Thor do something really impressive when KB is writing him for Avengers?

Me, neither.

Superman is bad, granted ... but he's not even in Thor's league once all the stops are pulled out. It requires poor, biased/agendized writing for the Man of Steel to defeat the God of Thunder.

And of course ignoring Supe's vulnerability to magic...

 

[darkwing_duck1]

But seriously, Thor will kill Superman. Thor is a god and Superman is useless against magic. It's just basic logic. But there is no way in hell DC would let their most iconic star get pwned by a Marvel supporting character.

No, it mean that if a magician casts a spell it will affect Superman in the same way it affects everyone else. Thor is no magician. Being powered by magic is no different than being powered by solar radiation or gamma rays when its about strength or durability. Transmutation, mystic energy and mystical objects are a different story.

Mjyolnyr is a mystic artifact.

 

[Nerys Myk]

No, it mean that if a magician casts a spell it will affect Superman in the same way it affects everyone else. Thor is no magician. Being powered by magic is no different than being powered by solar radiation or gamma rays when its about strength or durability. Transmutation, mystic energy and mystical objects are a different story.

Mjyolnyr is a mystic artifact.

True and it's properties are limited the magic used to forge it and the spells placed on it. Unless those spells or properties can somehow hurt Superman its just a hammer.

 

[JM1776]

True and its properties are limited [to] the magic used to forge it and the spells placed on it. Unless those spells or properties can somehow hurt Superman it's just a hammer.

Considering that such a weapon would certainly be enchanted so as to cause devastating damage with a blow—especially if its wielder so desires—I think we can assume it would hurt Superman tremendously.

To Busiek's infinitesimal credit, when Thor, in Avengers/JLA, tosses Superman the hammer (with leave to wield it), the Man of Steel makes clear that its powers (and by extension, Thor's) are so far beyond his comprehension that their potential staggers even him.

In other words, "I'm damned lucky Thor didn't fry my ass with this thing."

 

[DWF]

What's the problem? Thor didn't know that Superman had heat vision. And it hits its target at the speed of light, which provides no response time for Thor.

Actually, Thor managed to defend himself adequately against Count Nefaria's laser-vision in Avengers #166 (IIRthe numberC). He blocked it by spinning his hammer. Pretty darn quick, Thunder God.

I've read that story. Marvel indulged their Superman fetish by giving Kryptonian-like powers to Nefaria. They turned Nefaria into a proxy for Superman, and it was an interesting battle. But where was Nefaria's freeze breath?

Thor defended himself well against Nefaria's heat vision In Avengers #166, but failed to do so against Superman's in JLA/AVENGERS. This isn't bad writing. Blame Thor for failing to anticipate everything that Superman might do. In other stories, doesn't the Hulk manage to land a big punch on Thor, once in a while? It happens to the best of 'em.

John Bryne was talking about that fight on his board recently and he said that the battle was meant to be Thor against Golden Age Superman and that Thor was in the end going to lose if I read his comments correctly. Thor is very powerful and very experienced as a fighter but I doubt he could've beaten Golden Age Superman. I'd chalk it up a lucky punch and the fact that Superman is a bigger name and if I remember right the Hulk got off a good punch on Superman in the Marvel VS DC miniseries.

 

[JM1776]

John Bryne was talking about that fight on his board recently and he said that the battle was meant to be Thor against Golden Age Superman and that Thor was in the end going to lose if I read his comments correctly. Thor is very powerful and very experienced as a fighter but I doubt he could've beaten Golden Age Superman. I'd chalk it up a lucky punch and the fact that Superman is a bigger name and if I remember right the Hulk got off a good punch on Superman in the Marvel VS DC miniseries.

I think you mean Silver Age, Pre-Byrne Superman, actually—the one who used to move planets and clean his suit by flying through supernovae. I could certainly see that version/vision of Superman defeating Thor—though I could just as easily see the Lee/Kirby Thor who drove off Galactus pulling out the win. And, frankly, King Thor with the Odinpower defeats even that Superman ... but now we're getting into beings with functionally limitless might, so it's not a very interesting discussion.

The Hulk, in their battle, cold-cocked Superman, actually, and still lost a quick, brutal fight—rightly so, in my opinion. But Thor is in a whole different class of power, when written properly, than the Hulk.

 

[DWF]

John Bryne was talking about that fight on his board recently and he said that the battle was meant to be Thor against Golden Age Superman and that Thor was in the end going to lose if I read his comments correctly. Thor is very powerful and very experienced as a fighter but I doubt he could've beaten Golden Age Superman. I'd chalk it up a lucky punch and the fact that Superman is a bigger name and if I remember right the Hulk got off a good punch on Superman in the Marvel VS DC miniseries.

I think you mean Silver Age, Pre-Byrne Superman, actually—the one who used to move planets and clean his suit by flying through supernovae. I could certainly see that version/vision of Superman defeating Thor—though I could just as easily see the Lee/Kirby Thor who drove off Galactus pulling out the win. And, frankly, King Thor with the Odinpower defeats even that Superman ... but now we're getting into beings with functionally limitless might, so it's not a very interesting discussion.

The Hulk, in their battle, cold-cocked Superman, actually, and still lost a quick, brutal fight—rightly so, in my opinion. But Thor is in a whole different class of power, when written properly, than the Hulk.

Yeah it was probably Silver Age Superman my fault. But in the end I still can't see Thor beating the Hulk since he can get stronger as he gets angrier. And of course it's all a matter of plot originally Thor couldn't beat the Mangog but the last time they fought Thor was able to beat him be putting his hammer in the Mangog's mouth and glasting him from the inside.

 

[Guy Gardener]

And Don Blake vs Gold Kryptonited Clark Kent?

The winner faces off with that milksop Bruce Banner.

Milksop?

What fuck?

Was General Ross related to Flanders, all inventing pretend swearwords?

 

[Nerys Myk]

True and its properties are limited [to] the magic used to forge it and the spells placed on it. Unless those spells or properties can somehow hurt Superman it's just a hammer.

Considering that such a weapon would certainly be enchanted so as to cause devastating damage with a blow—especially if its wielder so desires—I think we can assume it would hurt Superman tremendously.

To Busiek's infinitesimal credit, when Thor, in Avengers/JLA, tosses Superman the hammer (with leave to wield it), the Man of Steel makes clear that its powers (and by extension, Thor's) are so far beyond his comprehension that their potential staggers even him.

In other words, "I'm damned lucky Thor didn't fry my ass with this thing."

I agree. Though sometimes I think not even Thor knows just how powerful his hammer is.

 

[Guy Gardener]

I'm curious about the enchantment that gives the user the power of Thor? Does that mean that Thor is twice as strong when he is using the hammer or half as strong when some one else is using the hammer if they are literally tapping into his power and not just magically duplicating it's effect?

Yes, I've read the Beta Ray Thor issues.

 

[Chess Piece Face]

Just because Thor is a God doesn't mean anything. Superman has beaten Gods before. Darksied comes to mind.

None of that changes that Superman is one of the most boring characters in fiction. If anything it reinforces that.

In your opinion. Your personal level of interest in the character has nothing to do with the fact that people were discussing Supes vs Gods.

How it reinforces it, I don't get either.

Whatever...none of this matters because those who prefer Supes will think Supes should win and those that prefer Thor will think he should win. Basically, this conversation is pointless.

 

[DWF]

I'm curious about the enchantment that gives the user the power of Thor? Does that mean that Thor is twice as strong when he is using the hammer or half as strong when some one else is using the hammer if they are literally tapping into his power and not just magically duplicating it's effect?

Yes, I've read the Beta Ray Thor issues.

No, when it comes to his strength he's got with or without the hammer but he does have a belt of strength that's double his strength.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Is it really a belt? My hind mind is telling me it's a girdle. I'll google it. Google girdle, that sounds odd.

Yes Girdle.

Beer Gut much?

Which would make Beta Ray Thor half as strong as beta ray Bill, since Bill is as strong as Thor with his belt... Just looking at loop holes in the logic, because i can hardly be serious about this.

 

[DWF]

Is it really a belt? My hind mind is telling me it's a girdle. I'll google it. Google girdle, that sounds odd.

Yes Girdle.

Beer Gut much?

Which would make Beta Ray Thor half as strong as beta ray Bill, since Bill is as strong as Thor with his belt... Just looking at loop holes in the logic, because i can hardly be serious about this.

Mythical Thor had a girdle but Marvel's Thor had a belt.

http://www.immortalthor.net/

Other Accessories Enchanted belt of strength that doubles Thor's physical attributes when he wears it, but physically drains him after wearing it. A suit of Asgardian battle armor. A pair of gauntlets.

And Beta Ray Bill recieved Thor's powers inclduing his strength because he was worthy enough to hold the hammer, which is one of the enchantments placed on the hammer from Odin.

 

[Mysterion]

Superman is more popular then Thor. That's why. It's why Batman always just happens to have kryponite in his belt so he can lay out Superman when ever they throw down. Stuff like that is a popularity contest.

That and the fact that Batman is just a paranoid SOB. He's got a plan to take down everyone if he's gotta.