Discussion in 'Science Fiction & Fantasy' started by Ar-Pharazon, May 20, 2020.
I still say they should have just made the Snyder Joker be a Charles Manson Cult Leader type.
Something tells me this was more Leto's idea than Snyders
Yeah...really, I like the idea of Joker as a Charles Manson type Cult Leader. It's something we haven't seen before.
An insane genius who views themselves as the savior of all mankind? Sounds interesting.
Now where has Snyder done that before...
So in these movies, both Superman AND Joker are full on with the Jesus imagery?
If we could harness the power of Leto and Snyder's pretentiousness we'd have enough energy to power a continent indefinitely. If it was anyone besides these two, I'd assume they were trolling everyone.
The Snyder Cut is going to be many terrible things, but at least it will be...interesting, I guess is the word for it.
Superman is and has always been an allegory for Moses, and Moses is a Christ Figure, so Zack Snyder didn't invent the idea of Superman being a Christ Figure; he simply took the character of Kal-El/Clark Kent back to his Hebrew Biblical roots.
Christ symbolism in films is not new. Used in Robocop, Tron and other films too. So, neither new nor offensive, and I say that as a religious person.
True. But they weren't lazily applying the symbolism to more than one character in essentially the same story. Originality takes a bit more effort and thought than that.
Since we don't know (or I don't anyway) how the Christ symbolism with the Joker will work then I fail to see the issue, thus far. Having two messianic figures is common, especially with a Christ and an Anti-Christ typology is a part of storytelling, and Joker certainly has served as the "Anti" in some Batman stories. You can also play with the concept of a "false god" with Joker pretending to be the Christ figure, serving as a counterpoint to Superman's true god.
Originality comes from execution.
Maybe part of the idea that's turning me off is that, sure, Joker has definitely served as an "Anti" in some Batman stories.
But not by literally wearing a crown of thorns screaming "Do you see the symbolism here? And you thought the imagery in MoS wasn't subtle."
As you say, originality comes from execution. And this is a sledgehammer in storytelling execution.
Never watched the Speed Racer one, but that Sonic cartoon was one of my favorite shows when I was a kid.
It's not like subtlety has ever been apart of Superman storytelling so I guess i don't have the expectation here. The use of a Christ style symbolism has been so prevalent in film making that it's hard to avoid seeing it. I mean, Star Wars used the Pieta style visual language with Obi-Wan holding people.
The Joker is a narcissist, convinced of his own rightness. Him utilizing the visual language has the potential to make sense within the character. But, again, I want to see the story. Leto is certainly not my favorite Joker iteration so this idea is one that at least feels line with past representations. So, it's at least semi-interesting. Certainly not subtle but I don't watch comic book films for subtlety. Comic book films are black and white, heroes and villains. The heroes are always right and the villains are always wrong.
I can 100% see Leto's Joker wearing a crown of thorns and trying to look like Clown Jesus in an apocalyptic hellscape.
Agreed--it is not new at all and has been used in film since the silent era, so why anyone is questioning its use in JL with Joker is...suspicion-inducing at the least.
If anything, I suspect Joker is mocking Christ--or actions from anyone believing in Him, which would be consistent with the militant atheism displayed by Luthor in Dawn of Justice.
The Joker? Mocking someone? Now that's crazy
I mean, that's Zack Snyder in a nutshell: By all accounts a decent guy in real life, but he makes movies designed to appeal to teenage edgelords full of nihilistic, misogynistic, and reactionary messages.
Perhaps the Joker is intentionally hitting the Jesus thing hard because of Superman. If Future/Imaginary Joker is there just to taunt Batman, why not really play up the "savior from the heavens" angle? "A god is dead because of you, Batman!"
Mentioning Robocop like this reminded me of this image, which I've seen online a lot recently:
Separate names with a comma.