Jonathan Frakes: "TATV an unpleasent memory"

[Dukhat]

We can both spin scenarios till the cows come up, but the fact of the matter is that you and I do not know. I suggested one scenario just to illustrate a potential alternative, but that doesn't mean it's necessarily true -- and neither necessarily is yours. We shouldn't be assuming anything.

I never said I knew the facts. I made it quite clear that it was my opinion that Frakes thought it was a good idea at the time.

In other words, you're making stuff up.

Well excuse the hell out of me for having an opinion.

 

[Sci]

I never said I knew the facts. I made it quite clear that it was my opinion that Frakes thought it was a good idea at the time.

In other words, you're making stuff up.

Well excuse the hell out of me for having an opinion.

That's not having an opinion. An opinion is an evaluation of facts, not a factual assertion. You are making a factual assertion without evidence to justify that assertion; therefore, you are not expressing an opinion, you are making stuff up.

 

[Dukhat]

That's not having an opinion. An opinion is an evaluation of facts, not a factual assertion. You are making a factual assertion without evidence to justify that assertion; therefore, you are not expressing an opinion, you are making stuff up.

So how is what I wrote any more or less of a speculation than what you wrote?

Another possibility:

Braga or Berman called him up and pitched the idea of coming aboard as a "valentine to the fans" to him. It sounded good over the phone. Having known these guys for years, owing much of his career success to Berman, he agrees and signs the contract to guest star.

Then he gets the script and realizes that it just doesn't work the way Berman and Braga wanted it to work, and that it in fact inadvertently ends up disrespecting the ENT cast and their work. But it's too late to back out, because he already signed the contract.

You didn't have any more "evidence" than I did. That's just your opinion too. The only difference is that I'm not acting like a smartass for no discernible reason and accusing you of "making stuff up." Get off your high horse and stop being so defensive.

 

[Sci]

That's not having an opinion. An opinion is an evaluation of facts, not a factual assertion. You are making a factual assertion without evidence to justify that assertion; therefore, you are not expressing an opinion, you are making stuff up.

So how is what I wrote any more or less of a speculation than what you wrote?

What I wrote is speculation. I identified it as such, in order to present an alternate possibility. I did not claim it to be fact; my point was that another possibility exists and because of this we should not jump to conclusions.

You didn't have any more "evidence" than I did.

I already said that.

That's just your opinion too.

No, it is not an opinion. It is speculation; I do not pretend that I have any evidence that it is what happened. As I've said several times now, I presented it as an alternate scenario that fits what facts we do have ("Frakes was offered a role in the ENT finale, Frakes was told it would be a valentine to the fans, Frakes came to dislike what we being done in the episode"), in order to illustrate the fact that your scenario is speculation.

ETA:

And unlike your speculation, I never claimed mine to be what actually happened; I did not frame it as a factual assertion the way you did.

 

[Dukhat]

And unlike your speculation, I never claimed mine to be what actually happened; I did not frame it as a factual assertion the way you did.

How many times do I have to tell you that I wrote an opinion, no matter how you personally want to spin it? Dude, you're just trolling now, and this discussion between you and I is over.

 

[number6]

Frakes didn't say anything bad about TATV until more recently, though.. He was supportive of it, until he saw the fans hated it. He seems to like the attention he gets from the fans. He comes off as pandering to them, at least to me. As an actor, he got to have a whole episode written around his character and had all the cool scenes. Who wouldn't jump at a chance to have that again? Seriously.

 

[Hopeful Romantic]

Good gravy, what the hell is wrong with you guys?

It's all pointless hyperbole.

number6, you've seen enough TATV threads to know that there will be hyperbole. It is often used by people who have very strong feelings about something. It is de rigueur in a thread about an episode a lot of people despise. So whether you agree with it or not, chill out and deal with it already.

And yes to each their own, but we don't need to start a new thread about it once a month.

And we're certainly not, in any way, being forced to post in threads we don't approve of.

Mach5, you picked the wrong week to pull your cutsie-pootsie passive-aggressive crap in this forum. Knock it off pronto. You do not want to be on my radar right now.

In other words, you're making stuff up.

Well excuse the hell out of me for having an opinion.

That's not having an opinion. An opinion is an evaluation of facts, not a factual assertion. You are making a factual assertion without evidence to justify that assertion; therefore, you are not expressing an opinion, you are making stuff up.

And unlike your speculation, I never claimed mine to be what actually happened; I did not frame it as a factual assertion the way you did.

I don't know what dictionary you're using, Sci, but according to my American Heritage, a post starting with "If I had to guess..." is speculation, and Dukhat was offering his opinion. So stop with the nit-picking and accusations and back off. It's a frickin TV show, for crying out loud.

Dude, you're just trolling now

Dukhat, you know better than this. Cut it out.

And if all of you don't shape up right now, the warnings will commence.

 

[Kotik]

Ouch, I don't think I've seen HR that cross before

That Frakes is critical of the episode is not really surprising. As he said, Fat!Riker and QuiteChhubby!Deanna stole the center stage from the show's cast for a massively contrived Plot. Most fans hate that episode with a passion and those foul feelings spill over on Frakes and Sirtis as a result, too.

 

[cooleddie74]

Sure, it's just a TV show. Everyone agrees. And I do have a life outside of watching and loving STAR TREK. But when someone starts a "TATV" thread you have to expect emotions to flare. It was the worst TREK series finale ever in most fans' eyes, even moreso than the heavily-panned "Turnabout Intruder(TOS)". Trip Tucker---arguably the most beloved character of the entire series---was killed off in the most unsatisfying and hackneyed death since Boba Fett and the show offered almost no verbal closure or emotion over the loss.

Yes. You're going to get flak over this episode. Expecting otherwise is just far too idealistic. After all, we're TREKKERS. Some of us get in fistfights over the varying designs of Worf's head ridges.

 

[Deckerd]

Stop sounding sensible eddie. It's unnerving.

 

[cooleddie74]

Tits and ham!

THERE'S A MARTIAN RAPING MY LEFT EYELID!

Franken Berry watches me as I sleep.



Better?

 

[Mach5]

Stop sounding sensible eddie. It's unnerving.

Yeah, emotions are, like, so '06, right?

 

[Captain Robert April]

I recall Frakes making comments along these lines at the time, so it's not a recent epiphany.

 

[Mach5]

I recall Frakes making comments along these lines at the time, so it's not a recent epiphany.

Yeah, he always seemed like he genuinely regretted being a part of something that infamous. Plus, judging by some statements from Blalock, Billingsley or Anthony Montgomery, the atmosphere on the set wasn't exactly festive. I can only imagine how awkward Frakes must have felt at times.

 

[number6]

I recall Frakes making comments along these lines at the time, so it's not a recent epiphany.

No. He didn't. This only started coming out in hindsight.

 

[Mach5]

I recall Frakes making comments along these lines at the time, so it's not a recent epiphany.

No. He didn't. This only started coming out in hindsight.

Yeah, but it didn't take him six full years to come to terms with it, like in Berman's case. These regretful comments came pretty early on.

 

[Deckerd]

In any case 'hindsight' can be the day after filming finished.

 

[cooleddie74]

We all know one thing for certain: Jolene Blalock expressed her extreme distaste for the finale as soon as it was aired, if not earlier. Frakes might have been more diplomatic about the episode, but Jolene---probably smarting from UPN's premature cancellation of the show a month or so before filming commenced---had no such reservations. I remember reading her negative comments about "TATV" in the immediate wake of its airing.

 

[Alrik]

I recall Frakes making comments along these lines at the time, so it's not a recent epiphany.

No. He didn't. This only started coming out in hindsight.

Yeah, but it didn't take him six full years to come to terms with it, like in Berman's case. These regretful comments came pretty early on.

If I am remembering things correctly, you are right Mach5. If memory serves, the stories of tension on the set and Frakes being worried that he had stepped on Scott's toes started to surface pretty soon after TATV aired. The only reason I'm pretty certain about the timing is the fact that within two or three months after TATV first aired, my RL got extremely busy. So much so, that I didn't even log in here for about a year and a half or more. That said, I am 98% sure that Frakes had already expressed some misgivings (maybe not so blunt as to refer to it as "an unpleasent memory, but misgivings non the less) about TATV prior to my falling off of the board.

 

[Alrik]

We all know one thing for certain: Jolene Blalock expressed her extreme distaste for the finale as soon as it was aired, if not earlier. Frakes might have been more diplomatic about the episode, but Jolene---probably smarting from UPN's premature cancellation of the show a month or so before filming commenced---had no such reservations. I remember reading her negative comments about "TATV" in the immediate wake of its airing.

I do remember that. Jolene was basically pissed and she didn't care who knew it. I think you're right about Frakes. He's a team player, so he was being pretty diplomatic. As I said, mostly hinting at issues.