Jennifer Lien status

[Lynx]

Kes did mention Tanis. Here's the quotation:

KES: I never want to see that part of myself again.
TUVOK: To which part are you referring?
KES: To the part of me which got pleasure from destroying those plants in the Airponics bay. To the part of me that was tempted to go with Tanis. I never realised I had such dark impulses.

So Kes does mention Tanis. What she pointedly does not do is blame Tanis. She admits that she was tempted to go with Tanis. She does not say Tanis tempted her, a simple grammatical difference, but one that speaks volumes. You obviously care for the character of Kes more than I do, but in this case, I think my interpretation (not theory) is the more generous one to her. I credit her with taking responsibility for herself.

Zahir is an irresponsible adventurer, as Tom and Neelix once were. Do you disagree? Or do you see nothing wrong with being an irresponsible adventurer? Honestly, either is a conceivable position (though neither position is mine). But why don't you take a position rather than continually asking me what I find wrong with Zahir so that I can keep continually telling you.

And could you please refrain from the insults, calling me a member of a cult and accusing me of having ulterior motives? My motive is to waste a little free time discussing parts of the Voyager series I find open to interpretation, because I love the show.

I never wrote that you were a member of a cult, I wrote that the nitpicking on Kes looked like something like what a cult could do. But I do apologize sincerely for that comment anyway. It's not my intention to insult anyone. I leave that to Braga and Fuller.

OK, she didn't blame Tanis directly in her discussion with Tuvok. But to see that as some evidence for her becoming bad is over the top as I see it.

Zahir is an adventurer, so was Neelix and so was Tom. But what's wrong with that? Nothing as I see it. I mean, none of them were dangerous criminals. When it comes to Neelix, he cleaned up his act long before arriving to Ocampa (read "Pathways" by Jeri Taylor) and he actually rescued Kes from the Kazon. As for Tom, a nice, friendly and funny guy. Nothing wrong in liking him. Zahir was an explorer, just like Kes herself.

I must once again state that I see no evidence for an ongoing process in which Kes developes into something evil during seasons 1-3. The times she acted weird were because of alien control of her and on both occasions she did fight to get rid of it.

 

[Lynx]

With the exception of her marriage to Tom Paris, Kes has bad taste in Men. That's often the case with Good Girls, is it not? They're inquisitive and Bad Boys offer a viable alternative to the norm. Good Girls that go bad are the most sought after and, in the end, that's what VOY tried to do with Kes, on her way out. But Jennifer Lien handled the change in tone with complete and total professionalism. She's never whinged. She took it like a Man ...

I don't think that Kes had particularily bad taste in men. As for Neelix, he rescued her from the Kazon and his jealousy and over-protection didn't really show up until they were on board the ship. Tom is actually a nice guy and when it came to Zahir, she did actually decide to stay on the ship instead of following him.

One thing I actually like with Kes is that she never had as bad taste in men that Deanna Troi had. I mean Devinion Ral and Ambassador Alkar. There we really have two real slimeballs! Neelix, Tom and Zahir aren't even close to those two.

As for Troi, I actually like the character. But she di really have a horrible taste in men.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Most easily lead dipshits join cults for drugs and sex.

If some hayseed gets picked up in a bus station, expecting the Manson family experience, but is instead placed in front of a 32 inch screen with a stack of Voyager videos, and a list of essay questions... It's just not good enough.

 

[2takesfrakes]

Dee was Riker's girl. That's it. So, she was made to kiss up on lesser Men, to bring Home this fact.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Worf thought that too.

Bro code and all, Dee should have dumped Worf, the second he mentioned in passing: "Commander Riker gave me verbal permission to mount you."

 

[KelisThePoet]

OK, she didn't blame Tanis directly in her discussion with Tuvok. But to see that as some evidence for her becoming bad is over the top as I see it.

It's more complicated than your parse. I'm not saying that refraining to blame someone is evidence of being bad. I'm saying that Tanis is not responsible for Kes' bad behavior, and even Kes knows that.

The times she acted weird were because of alien control of her and on both occasions she did fight to get rid of it.

Tanis never controls Kes, any more than Zahir does. He doesn't even brainwash her. At most, he tempts her.

 

[KelisThePoet]

Do you know comics?

The Dark Phoenix Saga.

Pretty standard.

I don't know what this is about. I don't follow comic books.

 

[Guy Gardener]

I don't know what this is about. I don't follow comic books.

Pretty ginger super heroine, level ups, saves the day, goes insane, destroys a planet, then commits suicide during a guilt racked flicker of sanity.

Sansa from Game of Thrones is that pretty Ginger super heroine, in the X-Men movies at the moment, so they are eventually going to tell that story (again) on the big screen.

 

[USS Triumphant]

An assumption seems to be made by many here that Kes would live a normal human life cycle, more or less - just accelerated. But I'm not sure that makes sense. Many shorter lived species even on our planet age to maturity very quickly, live "in their prime" physically speaking for pretty much all their lives, and then decline very quickly at the end. Assumptions I'm seeing here about Kes's "human age equivalence" seem off. Instead of her year-to-year being childhood-17-28-39-50-61-72-83-94 and dead, it seems more likely to me that Ocampans would go childhood-17-23-24-25-26-27-28-100 and dead.

Completely aside from the comparison with shorter-lived Earth species, there's also the matter of the Ocampans needing more high-productivity time proportionally in order to get anything done (survival, civilization, etc) at all.

haha yeah if they are that long lived then his relationship with Kes is even stranger

Well, either that, or it makes it make more sense. I mean, if Talaxians live that long, but Neelix no longer believes that he will be able to be in a relationship with another Talaxian, then he turns to other species for companionship. At which point, what is the difference to someone who lives thousands of years between someone who lives 150, or someone who lives 9? Either way, to him it would seem very temporary.

 

[Guy Gardener]

It's not the years, it's the mileage.

 

[2takesfrakes]

An assumption seems to be made by many here that Kes would live a normal human life cycle, more or less - just accelerated. But I'm not sure that makes sense. Many shorter lived species even on our planet age to maturity very quickly, live "in their prime" physically speaking for pretty much all their lives, and then decline very quickly at the end. Assumptions I'm seeing here about Kes's "human age equivalence" seem off. Instead of her year-to-year being childhood-17-28-39-50-61-72-83-94 and dead, it seems more likely to me that Ocampans would go childhood-17-23-24-25-26-27-28-100 and dead.

Completely aside from the comparison with shorter-lived Earth species, there's also the matter of the Ocampans needing more high-productivity time proportionally in order to get anything done (survival, civilization, etc) at all.

Well, either that, or it makes it make more sense. I mean, if Talaxians live that long, but Neelix no longer believes that he will be able to be in a relationship with another Talaxian, then he turns to other species for companionship. At which point, what is the difference to someone who lives thousands of years between someone who lives 150, or someone who lives 9? Either way, to him it would seem very temporary.

The Virginia Opossum is a fairly large prey animal - larger than a large housecat - and only lives four years. It's probably the largest land animal with that short a lifespan. In fact, they can't even be tamed, presumably because of this. It's interesting that Opossum and Ocampans is so similar, is it not?

 

[Triskelion]

An assumption seems to be made by many here that Kes would live a normal human life cycle, more or less - just accelerated. But I'm not sure that makes sense. Many shorter lived species even on our planet age to maturity very quickly, live "in their prime" physically speaking for pretty much all their lives, and then decline very quickly at the end. Assumptions I'm seeing here about Kes's "human age equivalence" seem off. Instead of her year-to-year being childhood-17-28-39-50-61-72-83-94 and dead, it seems more likely to me that Ocampans would go childhood-17-23-24-25-26-27-28-100 and dead.

Completely aside from the comparison with shorter-lived Earth species, there's also the matter of the Ocampans needing more high-productivity time proportionally in order to get anything done (survival, civilization, etc) at all.

Well, either that, or it makes it make more sense. I mean, if Talaxians live that long, but Neelix no longer believes that he will be able to be in a relationship with another Talaxian, then he turns to other species for companionship. At which point, what is the difference to someone who lives thousands of years between someone who lives 150, or someone who lives 9? Either way, to him it would seem very temporary.

Yes, it would make sense that they age very well;, but for the middle aged Ocampans we have seen; who seem to take positions of authority at equivalent human stages. Kes's own life in Before and After showed a pretty evenly spread development. See Caretaker, Cold Fire, and B&A, for examples. My issue is that Kes remained a naive ingenue for her entire run, when she should have become a professional by that time, such as a surgeon.

One major issue here is that the writers invented this species with very little development of their original premise, opting instead to go ESP Being of Light with them. I mean, not even the Caretaker seemed aware of their - retconned - potential.

 

[exocomp]

The thing is that Kes has to learn in a month what takes normally a year for a human being to learn, so by our standard in order to be just normal, she'd have to be a super genius or she would never catch up. I never got the sense that Kes were that bright and I believe it's the main problem with her character.

 

[Thomas Eugene]

The thing is that Kes has to learn in a month what takes normally a year for a human being to learn, so by our standard in order to be just normal, she'd have to be a super genius or she would never catch up. I never got the sense that Kes were that bright and I believe it's the main problem with her character.

You didn't? Even the Doctor was amazed on more than one occasion how quickly she had learnt the material he'd given to her for studying.

 

[exocomp]

You didn't? Even the Doctor was amazed on more than one occasion how quickly she had learnt the material he'd given to her for studying.

I don't know. She had quite a few "blonde moments", like when she walked through that forcefield that almost cost her her life.

 

[Thomas Eugene]

I don't know. She had quite a few "blonde moments", like when she walked through that forcefield that almost cost her her life.

I don't see the connection. In real life I know a lot of people who are very bright intellectually but they are complete dummies when it comes to practical stuff like doing the shopping. So Kes might not have seemed very practical to you - although she did seem so to me - it seems that intellectually she was a genius. She even had plans studying medicine at university once Voyager got back to Earth.
Also, in the world of Star Trek, forcefields usually seem to serve as a barrier to stop people from passing without killing them. That one in SACRED GROUND might have seemed just one of the many forcefields to her. I guess most people would have had the "blonde moment" to think that except for a little unpleasant shock, nothing more serious would happen to them if they touched it.

 

[2takesfrakes]

It's pretty clear that Ocampans are meant to have a lot of instinctual knowledge passed onto them and that they have abilities and powers to make up for not having the benefit of decades of experience in Life. But, at the end of the day, guess what? However you want to count them out, ten years is 10 years.

But when you think about extremely long-lived characters, like Bram Stoker's "Dracula," here's a guy who's over a thousand years, or something like it and he's doing the same shit the same way he's always done it, all this time. You know what I'm saying? It's very possible to reach a certain point where you just plateau, because, partly, you have to go with what you are. At the same time, I feel that Kes would've been much better liked, if her race had a natural lifespan of 80 years plus, or whatever.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Teaching Dracula how to use Twitter.

Oh, the humanity.

 

[Lynx]

It's more complicated than your parse. I'm not saying that refraining to blame someone is evidence of being bad. I'm saying that Tanis is not responsible for Kes' bad behavior, and even Kes knows that.

Tanis never controls Kes, any more than Zahir does. He doesn't even brainwash her. At most, he tempts her.

Tanis was responsible for Kes's bad behavior.
He taught Kes how to move objects and boil tea in a cup. When Kes tried that to show Tuvok what she had learned, Tanis had "forgotten" to teach her how to stop the process which caused the accident with Tuvok. That wasn't Kes's fault or any "bad hehavior", she simply didn't know what she was doing.

Compare that with B'Elanna deliberately breaking Carey's nose, almost killing him. Is B'Elanna considered a bad person with bad behavior because of that? No! But Kes can be dissected, analyzed and nitpicked.

Tanis tempted Kes to burn the flowers in the Hydroponics Bay. Was it Kes's fault? No, it was Tanis's fault.

Finally Kes realizes what kind of person Tanis is and uses the powers against him and she's saving the ship too. All credit to Kes for fighting Tanis's bad influence on her.

 

[Lynx]

It's pretty clear that Ocampans are meant to have a lot of instinctual knowledge passed onto them and that they have abilities and powers to make up for not having the benefit of decades of experience in Life. But, at the end of the day, guess what? However you want to count them out, ten years is 10 years.

But when you think about extremely long-lived characters, like Bram Stoker's "Dracula," here's a guy who's over a thousand years, or something like it and he's doing the same shit the same way he's always done it, all this time. You know what I'm saying? It's very possible to reach a certain point where you just plateau, because, partly, you have to go with what you are. At the same time, I feel that Kes would've been much better liked, if her race had a natural lifespan of 80 years plus, or whatever.

The Ocampa lifespan was a mistake from the writers.
They tried to come up with something new which didn't work.
They should have realized that a species with such a short lifetime could never develope in to anything more than primates.

As for Dracula, he could actually be seen as equivalent to a drug addict. He needs blood desperately, therefore he's doing the same things all over and over again.

I guess it's easier for him today when he can see a doctor and get a prescription, then go to the local hospital and get his daily bottle of blood from the bloodbank.