haha yeah if they are that long lived then his relationship with Kes is even stranger
Though I do think there are plenty of story arcs throughout the show, many obvious, some more subtle, some main plot points, and some backround ones.
Jennifer Lien status
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Though I do think there are plenty of story arcs throughout the show, many obvious, some more subtle, some main plot points, and some backround ones.
But Sophie ... can it last?
if you BELIEVE it can
The connection between "Cold Fire" and "Fury" is obvious. Both involve Kes using her mental powers to create havoc.
Were the head writers already planning "Fury" when they wrote "Cold Fire"? There's no way to know, and it doesn't matter. Did the writers of "Fury" have "Cold Fire" in mind as the ground and justification for their new story? No question. Could Kes' story have progressed a different way? Sure, but that doesn't mean there are no logical connections between the stories that were written.
Initially, Lynx claimed there was no connection between "Cold Fire" and "Fury" because in "Cold Fire," Tanis was to blame, not Kes, and because Kes said she would never do such dark things with her powers again. But Kes is careful not to blame Tanis at the end of the episode. And she says she doesn't want to see that part of herself again. First of all, not wanting to see a part of oneself is different from saying it will never surface. Second of all, Tuvok calls out even Kes' desire not to confront her own darkness as naive and immature. He contrasts the Vulcans' progression to cultural maturity. So the idea that Kes can just wish away her own inner darkness is immediately called into question by the episode itself.
Were the head writers already planning "Fury" when they wrote "Cold Fire"? There's no way to know, and it doesn't matter. Did the writers of "Fury" have "Cold Fire" in mind as the ground and justification for their new story? No question. Could Kes' story have progressed a different way? Sure, but that doesn't mean there are no logical connections between the stories that were written.
Initially, Lynx claimed there was no connection between "Cold Fire" and "Fury" because in "Cold Fire," Tanis was to blame, not Kes, and because Kes said she would never do such dark things with her powers again. But Kes is careful not to blame Tanis at the end of the episode. And she says she doesn't want to see that part of herself again. First of all, not wanting to see a part of oneself is different from saying it will never surface. Second of all, Tuvok calls out even Kes' desire not to confront her own darkness as naive and immature. He contrasts the Vulcans' progression to cultural maturity. So the idea that Kes can just wish away her own inner darkness is immediately called into question by the episode itself.
Neelix and Tom are both presented as irresponsible before they join the Voyager crew, as you say, so if you see Zahir as a similar character, I'm surprised you see nothing wrong with him at all. Actually, come to think of it, there's a pattern of Kes' falling for bad boys (I suppose a more generous label would be "adventurers"), from Neelix, to Tom, to Zahir. And as soon as one cleans up his act, she moves on to another. I guess there's nothing wrong with being attracted to adventure and novelty, but I think Kes was too attracted to the danger and irresponsibility that go along with it.
Only they're not the same. Kes is a dark character because she burns down the arponics bay. Janeway is a dark character because she uses the self destruct sequence in appropriate situations. B'Elanna is a dark character because she likes banana pancakes. As they say on Sesame Street, one of these things is not like the others.
Kes established in Season Two's Elogium that she wasn't even 2 years old yet. If her biological age then was about 20-25 human years, that could put the Ocampan year at over a human decade. I would say about 1.5 years = 20 human years, in which case, 1 Ocampan year = 13.33 years for a human.
Figuring 1 year old in the DQ, 1.5 y.o. meeting Neelix (about 20 y.o. for a human) - and about that age in Season 1 Episode 1.
OK, then by Season 3's Warlord (about halfway through that season), she would be roughly
1.5 + 2.5 seasons = 4 y.o.
4 x 13.33 = 53.32 years old!
Hm, aging well!
And saying that a year is like 13.33 years to an Ocampan, their relationship lasted for the equivalent of 2.5 seasons, or 33 Ocampan years. And I'm not even counting that time between episodes is months, not weeks. Nor even the months they dated prior to her kidnapping by the Kazon! Which pushes their relationship closer to the 40 year mark!
So Neelix & Kes were an item for (only) about 40 of her years.
And here we sit wondering whether they will last.
Which is kind of weird when you think about it, consdering the Ocampan Elogium occured when they were between 4 and 5. For a human that would put it at 53-66 years old. Old enough to take responsibilty for your choice of mate. But then, so is a 1 year old Ocampan, as not a single Delta Quadrant individual ever batted an eye at her claim of being in a relationship as a consenting adult.
Disagree if you like - and go out and tell a person in their 20's whom they may or may not date. Good luck with that!
Neelix saved her life. He didn't make her leave university to be a barefoot frontier wife. They both knew what they were getting into. And here we sit, questioning whether their 40 year marriage is an adolescent crush.
With Kes, a 1 month dalliance with a dashing pilot would be a year-long devastating affair in her relationship with Neelix. So yeah, high stakes, those little innocent jaunts on the holodeck with a guy with the hots for her.
And finally I will just ask, how would Kes feel about Neelix spending that time doing the same thing with say, a cute whisker-tugging fruit-girl who decided to stay aboard ship while Kes was still around? Think she would so calmly brush it off as innocent while carrying Neelix's child?
Nope. She wouldn't confront him about it either. Kes would just go ringing Tom's doorbell and then not explain why she was no longer talking to Neelix. You know, all calm and collected-like. But indulging her actual desire while suffering the very same betrayal she dismissed out of hand in Neelix.
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They didn't know about Jennifer being fired when they wrote Cold Fire.
(I know how silly I sound saying that above, but some of you seemed to have needed to have "heard" it said.)
(I know how silly I sound saying that above, but some of you seemed to have needed to have "heard" it said.)
Thank you, for working out the math for me, sir -- I'm not very good with figures (which is odd, because my father's an electrical/mechanical engineer). Dog years, also, screw me up. One year is worth Seven, but not before it's first year, where months represent ... blah, blah ... of the blah! Dogs usually die around 10 to 15 years, that's all anyone needs to know, really. Because, come year 10, or so, he'll give up the ghost with only one thought on his crotch-sniffing, stick-fetching mind, ".... oh SHIT--!!!"Kes established in Season Two's Elogium that she wasn't even 2 years old yet. If her biological age then was about 20-25 human years, that could put the Ocampan year at over a human decade. I would say about 1.5 years = 20 human years, in which case, 1 Ocampan year = 13.33 years for a human.
Figuring 1 year old in the DQ, 1.5 y.o. meeting Neelix (about 20 y.o. for a human) - and about that age in Season 1 Episode 1.
OK, then by Season 3's Warlord (about halfway through that season), she would be roughly
1.5 + 2.5 seasons = 4 y.o.
4 x 13.33 = 53.32 years old!
Hm, aging well!
And saying that a year is like 13.33 years to an Ocampan, their relationship lasted for the equivalent of 2.5 seasons, or 33 Ocampan years. And I'm not even counting that time between episodes is months, not weeks. Nor even the months they dated prior to her kidnapping by the Kazon! Which pushes their relationship closer to the 40 year mark!
So Neelix & Kes were an item for (only) about 40 of her years.
And here we sit wondering whether they will last.
Which is kind of weird when you think about it, consdering the Ocampan Elogium occured when they were between 4 and 5. For a human that would put it at 53-66 years old. Old enough to take responsibilty for your choice of mate. But then, so is a 1 year old Ocampan, as not a single Delta Quadrant individual ever batted an eye at her claim of being in a relationship as a consenting adult.
Disagree if you like - and go out and tell a person in their 20's whom they may or may not date. Good luck with that!
Neelix saved her life. He didn't make her leave university to be a barefoot frontier wife. They both knew what they were getting into. And here we sit, questioning whether their 40 year marriage is an adolescent crush.
With Kes, a 1 month dalliance with a dashing pilot would be a year-long devastating affair in her relationship with Neelix. So yeah, high stakes, those little innocent jaunts on the holodeck with a guy with the hots for her.
And finally I will just ask, how would Kes feel about Neelix spending that time doing the same thing with say, a cute whisker-tugging fruit-girl who decided to stay aboard ship while Kes was still around? Think she would so calmly brush it off as innocent while carrying Neelix's child?
Nope. She wouldn't confront him about it either. Kes would just go ringing Tom's doorbell and then not explain why she was no longer talking to Neelix. You know, all calm and collected-like. But indulging her actual desire while suffering the very same betrayal she dismissed out of hand in Neelix.
You do bring up an interesting point about time-perception, though and it is an interesting thing. Having to sit through a boring lecture for an hour can seem like an eternity ... literally! Having one's starship about to self-destruct in 60 minutes, with no way to escape ... that's when you find out, for sure, just how brief an hour really is. Time probably does not "fly by" for Kes, in that sense. But being anchored to Neelix for most of her Life probably did make it seem like 4 decades, to her. What with his excitability and constant whinging and all that draining her energies. And as a cook, Neelix should know - better than most - that a soufflé cannot rise twice ...
Also just wanted to point out that it is said she was probably having a false early Elogium. So that may throw your numbers offKes established in Season Two's Elogium that she wasn't even 2 years old yet. If her biological age then was about 20-25 human years, that could put the Ocampan year at over a human decade. I would say about 1.5 years = 20 human years, in which case, 1 Ocampan year = 13.33 years for a human.
Figuring 1 year old in the DQ, 1.5 y.o. meeting Neelix (about 20 y.o. for a human) - and about that age in Season 1 Episode 1.
OK, then by Season 3's Warlord (about halfway through that season), she would be roughly
1.5 + 2.5 seasons = 4 y.o.
4 x 13.33 = 53.32 years old!
Hm, aging well!
And saying that a year is like 13.33 years to an Ocampan, their relationship lasted for the equivalent of 2.5 seasons, or 33 Ocampan years. And I'm not even counting that time between episodes is months, not weeks. Nor even the months they dated prior to her kidnapping by the Kazon! Which pushes their relationship closer to the 40 year mark!
So Neelix & Kes were an item for (only) about 40 of her years.
And here we sit wondering whether they will last.
Which is kind of weird when you think about it, consdering the Ocampan Elogium occured when they were between 4 and 5. For a human that would put it at 53-66 years old. Old enough to take responsibilty for your choice of mate. But then, so is a 1 year old Ocampan, as not a single Delta Quadrant individual ever batted an eye at her claim of being in a relationship as a consenting adult.
Disagree if you like - and go out and tell a person in their 20's whom they may or may not date. Good luck with that!
Neelix saved her life. He didn't make her leave university to be a barefoot frontier wife. They both knew what they were getting into. And here we sit, questioning whether their 40 year marriage is an adolescent crush.
With Kes, a 1 month dalliance with a dashing pilot would be a year-long devastating affair in her relationship with Neelix. So yeah, high stakes, those little innocent jaunts on the holodeck with a guy with the hots for her.
And finally I will just ask, how would Kes feel about Neelix spending that time doing the same thing with say, a cute whisker-tugging fruit-girl who decided to stay aboard ship while Kes was still around? Think she would so calmly brush it off as innocent while carrying Neelix's child?
Nope. She wouldn't confront him about it either. Kes would just go ringing Tom's doorbell and then not explain why she was no longer talking to Neelix. You know, all calm and collected-like. But indulging her actual desire while suffering the very same betrayal she dismissed out of hand in Neelix.
In Cold Fire there is also mention of a higher plane of existance where Susperia and the other Ocampans hang out. I wonder if that place might have had something to do with her going all dark. It seems like Susperia and others who go there have these dark impulses inside of them. When Kes "explodes" in The Gift, maybe that's where she ends up too and being there makes her go dark too.
I think Kes is a wuss.
She got a little high, and then begged to be forgiven by the universe for being selfishly indulgent.
You know like when a 2 year old figures out that grabbing themself where they do numbers feels neat.
Think about what she did.
Kes set 12 pot plants on fire.
Puuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuure evil.
She got a little high, and then begged to be forgiven by the universe for being selfishly indulgent.
You know like when a 2 year old figures out that grabbing themself where they do numbers feels neat.
Think about what she did.
Kes set 12 pot plants on fire.
Puuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuure evil.
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So the fact that Kes didn't mention Tanis in her conversation with Tuvok at the end of "Cold Fire" is evidence that she was becoming a bad and evil person!
This is downright ridiculous!
Honestly, it's starting to look like one of those cults where people are constantly looking for signs, such as "Oh, Kes coughed in the wrong tune a Friday morning! That's evidence that she were about to become a dark person!" or "Oh, she looked annoyed to the holographic Zimmerman in "The Swarm! That's evidence that she is becoming evil!"
I'm just waiting for Yoda to show up saying:
"Developing to a dark and evil person, she is. See the signs, I can. Victorious, the dark force will be. Yes, hmmm."
It's like taking one gesture here, one misfortune in one episode there and twist it into some scientific evidence that she was bad to the core. I find the whole thing a conspiracy theory of some sort.
And why all those attacks on Zahir? I don't get it. Kes had a crush on him, then she decided to stay on the ship instead of joining him in his exploring. What did he actually do wrong to be labeled as such an outlaw and irresponsible person?
And all of a sudden both Neelix and Tom are bad guys too and when they "cleaned up their acts" Kes left them! Now this makes no sense at all.
What about Daggin in "Caretaker"? Was he also a "bad boy" that Kes had a crush on and was that also evidence that she was becoming evil?
As I've written before, I haven't found one single piece of evidence which support your theories in any way, not in any of the episodes in seasons 1-3.
The only question I have is: Why?
Why spend so incredible much time to nitpick every single move and gesture of one character in some attempt to find, or more likely create "evidence" that she was becoming an evil character. I just don't get it.
She sure looked like she was enjoying it
I wonder if she had followed through with Tuvok's recommendation and continued to work with him to learn more about her own powers if she would have had a different outcome. She would have known better what to do with her dark impulses, would have had better control over them, so if they resurfaced she wouldn't go crazy trying to kill everyone.
That's true in the sense that nobody outright knows how a show is going to develop over seven years. It's equally true that the writers didn't know Jennifer would be around all seven years. It's not like her leaving was the first or last time something like that happened on a television program.
When I say "Cold Fire" leads to "Fury," I'm not claiming to peek into any kind of inaccessible master plan in all the show writers' collective brain. I'm just saying that now that both episodes have been made, the connections between them make sense.
Kes did mention Tanis. Here's the quotation:
KES: I never want to see that part of myself again.
TUVOK: To which part are you referring?
KES: To the part of me which got pleasure from destroying those plants in the Airponics bay. To the part of me that was tempted to go with Tanis. I never realised I had such dark impulses.
So Kes does mention Tanis. What she pointedly does not do is blame Tanis. She admits that she was tempted to go with Tanis. She does not say Tanis tempted her, a simple grammatical difference, but one that speaks volumes. You obviously care for the character of Kes more than I do, but in this case, I think my interpretation (not theory) is the more generous one to her. I credit her with taking responsibility for herself.
Zahir is an irresponsible adventurer, as Tom and Neelix once were. Do you disagree? Or do you see nothing wrong with being an irresponsible adventurer? Honestly, either is a conceivable position (though neither position is mine). But why don't you take a position rather than continually asking me what I find wrong with Zahir so that I can keep continually telling you.
And could you please refrain from the insults, calling me a member of a cult and accusing me of having ulterior motives? My motive is to waste a little free time discussing parts of the Voyager series I find open to interpretation, because I love the show.
With the exception of her marriage to Tom Paris, Kes has bad taste in Men. That's often the case with Good Girls, is it not? They're inquisitive and Bad Boys offer a viable alternative to the norm. Good Girls that go bad are the most sought after and, in the end, that's what VOY tried to do with Kes, on her way out. But Jennifer Lien handled the change in tone with complete and total professionalism. She's never whinged. She took it like a Man ...
She sure looked like she was enjoying it
Regret comes after climax.
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