Jennifer Lien in trouble again?

[Jayson1]

I don't think drunk driving is seen as not being serious. When caught people go to jail. They usally get their license revoked if they do it enough times. As for Lien she has a mental illness so that has got to be considered as well. Not sure why this isn't something people can forgive. Forgiveness isn't the same thing as letting her off the hook especially in our cases since we aren't cops or employer's or family to her. Hating her or forgiving her has the same effect on her life. Might as well do the nice one.

Jason

 

[Triskelion]

And I find that kind of careless, callous dismissal of someone's mental health state to be part of the problem with our legal system. Instead of dealing with the habitual offense by getting to the root of the issue, "toss her in a cell" seems to be the best they can come up with, or care to, anyway.


You can cut the sarcasm.

Well, to change something someone has to first understand it. A Federal Justice System, for instance. Or actual attitudes on a BBS. Otherwise - good luck.

 

[Refuge]

I don't think drunk driving is seen as not being serious. When caught people go to jail. They usally get their license revoked if they do it enough times. As for Lien she has a mental illness so that has got to be considered as well. Not sure why this isn't something people can forgive. Forgiveness isn't the same thing as letting her off the hook especially in our cases since we aren't cops or employer's or family to her. Hating her or forgiving her has the same effect on her life. Might as well do the nice one.

Jason

That's a very mature response.

 

[Amaris]

Well, to change something someone has to first understand it. A Federal Justice System, for instance. Or actual attitudes on a BBS. Otherwise - good luck.

Insults are not necessary. You've done this repeatedly, and I've ignored it. If you don't like my stance on the justice system, feel free not to engage. Otherwise, leave the insults by the wayside.

 

[Refuge]

@Amaris

I'm in two minds again, me and my two minds I do think even the average person out there can be the subject of an Internet discussion but with the more famous attracting more attention. Yet the trap is we can reduce a situation to its basics and then layer on our judgement. The matter of law will take care of itself with all the circumstances considered. I don't think we as participants on this BBS should be judged for our careful responses.

I don't know this woman. What I have come to believe is that she (before she puts the drink to her lips), is someone whose ability to make choices is filtered through genuine mental illness. Of course that doesn't cancel out DUIs and assault. I don't believe jail is the solution or not the next option, and maybe I watch too much Dr. Phil but if the help she has been given so far is not working she might need other professionals to give her some effective solutions (and therapy). Possibly she could benefit from a legitimate rehab facility and its environment. That might have to be court ordered

 

[Akiraprise]

Well, to change something someone has to first understand it. A Federal Justice System, for instance. Or actual attitudes on a BBS. Otherwise - good luck.

Insults are not necessary. You've done this repeatedly, and I've ignored it. If you don't like my stance on the justice system, feel free not to engage. Otherwise, leave the insults by the wayside.

I don't think either one of you are going to change the others mind so may as well stop the bickering.

Ive done my fair share of work in the criminal justice field. I've seen first hand the horror traffic crash DUI's can cause. I've worked with attorneys and seen them get guilty people off on a paperwork techincality. I've worked with victims of domestic assaults. I've seen the repeat offenders get slaps on the wrist over and over. Our criminal justice system is flawed, but everyone has the opportunity to have their case heard by a jury of their peers. There is no easy solution. But I do believe in giving someone who has a willingness to change and avails themselves of the programs offered to them a second chance. The bottom line is a person has to be willing to help themselves, the system can only do so much for them, and that does not happen right away. Sometimes it doesn't happen at all and some people just need to be locked up. In Liens case it might be time she gets sent to jail for an extended stay as she has been afforded several opportunities to change.

 

[Amaris]

I don't think either one of you are going to change the others mind so may as well stop the bickering.

Ive done my fair share of work in the criminal justice field. I've seen first hand the horror traffic crash DUI's can cause. I've worked with attorneys and seen them get guilty people off on a paperwork techincality. I've worked with victims of domestic assaults. I've seen the repeat offenders get slaps on the wrist over and over. Our criminal justice system is flawed, but everyone has the opportunity to have their case heard by a jury of their peers. There is no easy solution. But I do believe in giving someone who has a willingness to change and avails themselves of the programs offered to them a second chance. The bottom line is a person has to be willing to help themselves, the system can only do so much for them, and that does not happen right away. Sometimes it doesn't happen at all and some people just need to be locked up. In Liens case it might be time she gets sent to jail for an extended stay as she has been afforded several opportunities to change.

How can a person who is mentally ill help themselves? A mental illness often denotes a lack of ability to perceive the issue as a problem, or at the very least as one that requires therapy. If your diagnostic program has been compromised, how can its conclusions be trusted? The United States has a poor track record of helping people with mental illness. We're a prison nation, with the highest incarceration rate in the world. That is a flaw on our part, that needs fixed. Certainly there are people who are in prison because they've murdered, or sexually assaulted others, but even they should not be beyond help. I realize it's not a popular position to hold, because our country loves to punish people, especially the poor, but the system as it is needs drastic overhaul. Someone like Jennifer, or anyone else who clearly shows signs of mental illness, needs genuine help, and not band-aid solutions.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

In some cases being sent to counselling is a band aid solution. Chronic dui'ers may need to be physically removed from being able to get into a car. Which means incarceration.

You act like jail sentences are all punitive. Often it's about protecting other people from being killed, maimed, raped, murdered. It's sad people have mental health issues and we need a better health care system to address this but that doesn't mean people who are a clear danger to others by their actions should be free to continue that endagerment.

 

[Jayson1]

In some cases being sent to counselling is a band aid solution. Chronic dui'ers may need to be physically removed from being able to get into a car. Which means incarceration.

You act like jail sentences are all punitive. Often it's about protecting other people from being killed, maimed, raped, murdered. It's sad people have mental health issues and we need a better health care system to address this but that doesn't mean people who are a clear danger to others by their actions should be free to continue that endagerment.

A mental hospital is just as good as a place for someone as a prison. Plus you have a better chance of helping them than just tossing them in a cage,sometimes with people who are even way more dangerous to society. Also doesn't prison just make people even worst when they come out? Unless your locking someone up forever they will rejoin society at some point. Maybe locking someone up makes things safer in the short term but in the long run your just making things more dangerous for people in the future. Meanwhile a woman's life stays in ruins.

Jason

 

[Lynx]

I don't think either one of you are going to change the others mind so may as well stop the bickering.

Ive done my fair share of work in the criminal justice field. I've seen first hand the horror traffic crash DUI's can cause. I've worked with attorneys and seen them get guilty people off on a paperwork techincality. I've worked with victims of domestic assaults. I've seen the repeat offenders get slaps on the wrist over and over. Our criminal justice system is flawed, but everyone has the opportunity to have their case heard by a jury of their peers. There is no easy solution. But I do believe in giving someone who has a willingness to change and avails themselves of the programs offered to them a second chance. The bottom line is a person has to be willing to help themselves, the system can only do so much for them, and that does not happen right away. Sometimes it doesn't happen at all and some people just need to be locked up. In Liens case it might be time she gets sent to jail for an extended stay as she has been afforded several opportunities to change.

A very good post!

I do agree with Amaris that Jennifer and other people in their situation needs help.

But like Akiraprise, I've seen a lot of the other side too. Victims of DUI's, victims of mentally disturbed people, victims of domestic assaults and so on and most of all, I've seen what drugs can do to people.

Of course, help should and must be available to those who have different mental problems as well as to those who are addicted to drugs and alcohol.

But what happens when someone becomes a threat to other living beings?

And what happens when a person with mental problems, drug problems and alcohol problems simply don't want that help? When they commit the same offenses over and over again?

I've seen that happen to people very close to me and back then and even now I actually did wish that those people would have ended up in jail or in some institution instead of being "allowed" to continue to destroy themselves, which they did.

The society I live in is in the other end of the line compared to the US. Here there are only short times in jail or in institutions even for rather severe cases. But there's no "help" available either. They just release people after a while and then they become victims of a non-functional "help" system. The only thing that happens is that some doctor write out prescriptions of different kinds of pills and nothing more.

Personally I get absolutely crazy with anger when I see that this person here or that person there who just has been released from prison or whatever commits another crime or kill someone in a traffic accident while drunk or high on dope. It happens too often here now. Not to mention when I see people destroying themselves with alcohol and drugs. This as happened to people close to me and I'm still angry that they didn't get any help when help was possible.

But I've also known people who simply didn't want any help. Once nice and friendly people who refused to see what they were doing to themselves. Some of them had a lot of support from friends and relatives but it didn't help and in the end, even the most loyal friends and family members might simply give up.

I've also read tons of books about well-known rock bands in which there have sometimes been someone who have had issues with drugs and/or alcohol. There have been other band members, friends, family and relatives who really have tried to help but to no avail. In one case even the record company did all they could to help a former member of a successful rock band to get his act together because they thought they did owe him that due to all the money the band had brought to the company. But it was in vain and the former rock star who was a very nice and talented person died a few years later of alcohol related diseases.

Sooner or later the patience might dry out and that might also happen to the justice system.

Let's face it, Jennifer did get away rather easily the last time with exposing herself, with resisting arrest, with a former conviction of domestic assault, with DUI not only once but twice. They also offered her help against whatever issues she's suffering from. But now it has happened again.

What happens the day when the justice system thinks enough is enough?

I hope and pray for Jennifer that she can get her life back in order but I fear that she might end up in prison or some institution. Or even worse, kill someone or herself while DUI.

For me, as a fan of her Star Trek Voyager character and of her as an actress, this is downright tragic to see.

 

[Shaka Zulu]

Well, I disagree. I think the whole idea of making someone's misdemeanors public record for everyone to see and point the finger is pretty fucked up.

Damn fraking right, it is. But it's done so that employers and other official people can see what your background's like.

I have always been a Kes fan and was upset when she left the show, it was a shame to read a couple of years ago that she was in legal trouble.

Just came across this today, and it seems she has unfortunately been arrested again last month.

https://tennessee.arrests.org/Arrests/Jennifer_Lien_35009843/

Tried googling for more information, but can't find anything more. I'm not sure how much information is in the public domain in the US. Does this just mean she has been fined or could potentially go to prison?

If anything, due to the '3 strikes' law, she might be sent to jail just like that.

 

[Jayson1]

A very good post!

I do agree with Amaris that Jennifer and other people in their situation needs help.

But like Akiraprise, I've seen a lot of the other side too. Victims of DUI's, victims of mentally disturbed people, victims of domestic assaults and so on and most of all, I've seen what drugs can do to people.

Of course, help should and must be available to those who have different mental problems as well as to those who are addicted to drugs and alcohol.

But what happens when someone becomes a threat to other living beings?

And what happens when a person with mental problems, drug problems and alcohol problems simply don't want that help? When they commit the same offenses over and over again?

I've seen that happen to people very close to me and back then and even now I actually did wish that those people would have ended up in jail or in some institution instead of being "allowed" to continue to destroy themselves, which they did.

The society I live in is in the other end of the line compared to the US. Here there are only short times in jail or in institutions even for rather severe cases. But there's no "help" available either. They just release people after a while and then they become victims of a non-functional "help" system. The only thing that happens is that some doctor write out prescriptions of different kinds of pills and nothing more.

Personally I get absolutely crazy with anger when I see that this person here or that person there who just has been released from prison or whatever commits another crime or kill someone in a traffic accident while drunk or high on dope. It happens too often here now. Not to mention when I see people destroying themselves with alcohol and drugs. This as happened to people close to me and I'm still angry that they didn't get any help when help was possible.

But I've also known people who simply didn't want any help. Once nice and friendly people who refused to see what they were doing to themselves. Some of them had a lot of support from friends and relatives but it didn't help and in the end, even the most loyal friends and family members might simply give up.

I've also read tons of books about well-known rock bands in which there have sometimes been someone who have had issues with drugs and/or alcohol. There have been other band members, friends, family and relatives who really have tried to help but to no avail. In one case even the record company did all they could to help a former member of a successful rock band to get his act together because they thought they did owe him that due to all the money the band had brought to the company. But it was in vain and the former rock star who was a very nice and talented person died a few years later of alcohol related diseases.

Sooner or later the patience might dry out and that might also happen to the justice system.

Let's face it, Jennifer did get away rather easily the last time with exposing herself, with resisting arrest, with a former conviction of domestic assault, with DUI not only once but twice. They also offered her help against whatever issues she's suffering from. But now it has happened again.

What happens the day when the justice system thinks enough is enough?

I hope and pray for Jennifer that she can get her life back in order but I fear that she might end up in prison or some institution. Or even worse, kill someone or herself while DUI.

For me, as a fan of her Star Trek Voyager character and of her as an actress, this is downright tragic to see.

What human being has never really wanted help when they have problems? People might not know how to ask for help or be to prideful to ask for help or simply to weak because of so much abuse/sadness and failure makes it feel overwhelming but everyone wants someone to care about them. Also prison like I said is not a long- term answer because you can't just lock people up forever for their own good unless they have gone down a even darker path than she has of yet.

Sure you might say their is some risk in just giving her medicine and thearpy but isn't that what comes with living in a evolved society? You accept that freedom means sometimes things are going to backfire for someone. If you wanted ultimate safety we could do what they do in that TNG episode "Justice" and just kill everyone for ever offense. Things would be more safe for most people but it wouldn't be a society people would want to live in.

Jason

 

[Amaris]

What human being has never really wanted help when they have problems? People might not know how to ask for help or be to prideful to ask for help or simply to weak because of so much abuse/sadness and failure makes it feel overwhelming but everyone wants someone to care about them. Also prison like I said is not a long- term answer because you can't just lock people up forever for their own good unless they have gone down a even darker path than she has of yet.

Sure you might say their is some risk in just giving her medicine and thearpy but isn't that what comes with living in a evolved society? You accept that freedom means sometimes things are going to backfire for someone. If you wanted ultimate safety we could do what they do in that TNG episode "Justice" and just kill everyone for ever offense. Things would be more safe for most people but it wouldn't be a society people would want to live in.

Jason

This is generally how I feel about it when it comes to mental illness. Many people don't want help because they don't realize they're sick. I think most human beings also have a sense of personal pride and integrity, and believe that if they admit they're sick in some fashion, they'll be outcast, and to be honest, in the U.S., having a mental illness, any mental illness, comes with a stigma. People look at you differently, they silently judge you, they presume awful things about you that may or may not be true based solely on their minimal (if any at all) understanding of mental health. It can affect your job, your personal life, and so it is to be avoided at all costs. That doesn't even get into our half-assed efforts when it comes to actually addressing mental health issues, either. That's a whole other ball of wax.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

I've known people who want their loved one to get arrested as a way of putting the brake on the downward spiral. There's also that relief of knowing they won't kill themselves or anyone else when they are in jail or a secure facility. Making people stay in mental health facilities is hard though and takes more than a bunch of DUI's to be able to legally compel them to do so.

Another point: someone whose had 3 dui's in a handful of years you can bet those were not the only time they were drunk and on the road, only when they were caught. People often do this ALL the time yet our sympathies don't see that and count only the times on record.

 

[Amaris]

I've known people who want their loved one to get arrested as a way of putting the brake on the downward spiral. There's also that relief of knowing they won't kill themselves or anyone else when they are in jail or a secure facility. Making people stay in mental health facilities is hard though and takes more than a bunch of DUI's to be able to legally compel them to do so.

Another point: someone whose had 3 dui's in a handful of years you can bet those were not the only time they were drunk and on the road, only when they were caught. People often do this ALL the time yet our sympathies don't see that and count only the times on record.

This goes back to how the United States handles mental health issues, and the fact that our jails and prisons are not secure, nor are they really safe, especially private prisons, which are for-profit prisons that make money off of incarcerating people, and by doing the absolute bare minimum in how they treat those prisoners. We have a terrible track record in that regard. It's one of the reasons why the U.S. system is so barbaric, especially compared to other first world nations.

In short, I would not feel relief if a loved one were arrested and jailed. I would be more worried about whether they'd come out alive and in one piece.

 

[Akiraprise]

That also doesn't count the times that a DUI offender may have gotten a delay of sentence and had a prior conviction wiped. If it says they have three they often have had several more. A first time offender is rarely jailed and is offered out patient alcohol counseling and maybe a suspended license for a few months. Some people do this and they are one arrest and done. Others repeat over and over. They have no regard for anyone but themselves. You can impose license sanctions, ignition interlocks, etc and they will still do as they please until they hurt someone else. Then the book gets thrown at them too late. Heck in the state of WI a 1st time DUI isn't even a crime. It's a traffic civil infraction., A few months ago I read in the local paper that a guy got sentenced to prison for his eighth DUI. It took eight times of getting caught before he got sent away.

I've seen some people come out of jail/prison with their GED's or they have taken some trade classes and once they got out went to work and became productive members of society. I've seen others commit a crime as soon as they got released just to get put back in the system because they don't want to deal with life outside of prison walls. This is why trying to fix the US criminal justice system is so hard. It works for some but not others.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

This goes back to how the United States handles mental health issues, and the fact that our jails and prisons are not secure, nor are they really safe, especially private prisons, which are for-profit prisons that make money off of incarcerating people, and by doing the absolute bare minimum in how they treat those prisoners. We have a terrible track record in that regard. It's one of the reasons why the U.S. system is so barbaric, especially compared to other first world nations.

In short, I would not feel relief if a loved one were arrested and jailed. I would be more worried about whether they'd come out alive and in one piece.

Okay I get that, even if I don't know if that would apply to everyone in the US or every kind of prison. However this still doesn't speak for the people who are potentially dead or maimed because someone is driving drunk. Letting people run around doing what they will because prisons suck is not the answer to today's problem which is that people, including Lien, are drunk and driving a 3500 lb weapon.

 

[Amaris]

That also doesn't count the times that a DUI offender may have gotten a delay of sentence and had a prior conviction wiped. If it says they have three they often have had several more. A first time offender is rarely jailed and is offered out patient alcohol counseling and maybe a suspended license for a few months. Some people do this and they are one arrest and done. Others repeat over and over. They have no regard for anyone but themselves. You can impose license sanctions, ignition interlocks, etc and they will still do as they please until they hurt someone else. Then the book gets thrown at them too late. Heck in the state of WI a 1st time DUI isn't even a crime. It's a traffic civil infraction., A few months ago I read in the local paper that a guy got sentenced to prison for his eighth DUI. It took eight times of getting caught before he got sent away.

I've seen some people come out of jail/prison with their GED's or they have taken some trade classes and once they got out went to work and became productive members of society. I've seen others commit a crime as soon as they got released just to get put back in the system because they don't want to deal with life outside of prison walls. This is why trying to fix the US criminal justice system is so hard. It works for some but not others.

Because it's not meant to rehabilitate. That it does for some is a minor miracle. For others, they merely learn just how little people care about them, and so they go back into "civilized" society much the worse for wear, with a record to follow them around that will prevent them from ever having the chance to really rebuild a life after they've supposedly repaid their debt to society. Like student loans, however, no matter how much you paid, the debt never really goes away, it only grows larger and more cumbersome.

Okay I get that, even if I don't know if that would apply to everyone in the US or every kind of prison. However this still doesn't speak for the people who are potentially dead or maimed because someone is driving drunk. Letting people run around doing what they will because prisons suck is not the answer to today's problem which is that people, including Lien, are drunk and driving a 3500 lb weapon.

It's less about letting them drive around, and more like finding them the right help they need. A prison cell isn't it, and our half-assed mental care isn't it, either. Our entire system needs reformed from the ground up, but one has to get the average U.S. citizen to give a damn, and from what I've seen, most don't.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

It's less about letting them drive around, and more like finding them the right help they need. A prison cell isn't it, and our half-assed mental care isn't it, either. Our entire system needs reformed from the ground up, but one has to get the average U.S. citizen to give a damn, and from what I've seen, most don't.

Yes but meanwhile they are driving around killing and maiming people.

No one is going to argue with you that the prison system doesn't need reform. But I'm talking about TODAY, the people on the roads who have an expectation they are not going to die because someone is driving drunk, someone who has already been driving drunk and caught, in trouble, offered alcohol help, had a suspended license already. Saying "prisons suck" does not address what we do today to keep dangerous people off the roads.

 

[Shaka Zulu]

That doesn't change that the United States almost revels in its system, and there's no maybe to it. We advocate for-profit prisons, zero tolerance policies, a prosecution system that aims for 100% conviction rates (that's regardless of innocence or guilt), and a media that capitalizes off of the mob mentality, which leads to the issue of art imitating life imitating art by what those people see on television: the same people who may one day be on a jury holding another person's life in their hands. There's a point of pride in being "tough on crime" until the point is reached that any compassion is seen as "soft," and is derided as immoral and wrong. Legality does not equate to morality.

In a case like Jennifer's, she needs professional help, not imprisonment. She needs guidance, not to be locked away in a cell, and punished over and over again. The U.S. system is not based on justice, but on a desire for revenge, one sanctioned by the State. The United States has an abhorrent record on how it treats those with mental illness, and stigmatizes those who suffer from it. Oh, the pharmaceutical industry will sell you a pill, but the justice system will just issue you a cell and let you rot.

When you are in your darkest moments, you need compassion, empathy, someone willing to reach down and help you stand up again, not people spitting in your face. That solves nothing. In short, I'd rather a guilty person go free, than an innocent one lose their freedom.

Nowhere is this more evident than in what happened to Lien vis-a-vis the punishment regarding the damaged police cruiser that she had to pay restitution to fix-basically, a person's mental health doesn't really matter in the USA (and Canada) anymore, but a smashed-up police car does matter more. Amazing what our priorities are in (North) America.

Oh, the pharmaceutical industry will sell you a pill, but the justice system will just issue you a cell and let you rot.

Even worse, in the case of the pill(s) that Big Pharma gives you, said pill(s) have side effects sometimes, which means that you have to deal with some physical malady on top of your psychological one. As to the other point, you're right about that one, and it's even worse than that; if you're mentally ill, they'll leave you in a cell to rot for a long time, because instead of helping the mentally ill, (North) American procedure is to throw the mentally ill in jail instead of treating them.