Jellico/Shelby

[Makarov]

Yesterday's Enterprise is the perfect example of how the captain having a short word with the crew gets them to throw themselves fully into the fight. If Jellico had that ability he would have had no resistance to his changes on the ship in the first place.

TBoBW was worse than war it was the end of humanity, time was critical but Riker still realized he was working with people and told Shelby to get some sleep. And he set aside his annoyance with her to give her the position in the first place. Riker used resources available to him better than Jellico did while in an even more time sensitive situation

 

[Mojochi]

Yesterday's Enterprise is the perfect example of how the captain having a short word with the crew gets them to throw themselves fully into the fight. If Jellico had that ability he would have had no resistance to his changes on the ship in the first place.

We don't really know that. There were points in Yesterday's Enterprise where Picard shuts people down & gives them no choice but to follow through with his orders. The difference is, it's still a Picard who had a longstanding trust established with the crew. Jellico has no such foundation to build on. Any words of encouragement, or compromises to his time table or mission specs might not necessarily quell the fact that he is a new guy that no one wanted to replace the old guy... and he has unpleasant changes to immediately make, that many of them don't agree with

Hell, Riker even barks at Picard a few times in Yesterday's Enterprise. Picard let's those slide because he knows the guy, & grants him some berth. There's no reason to suspect some other captain who doesn't should do the same

TBoBW was worse than war it was the end of humanity, time was critical but Riker still realized he was working with people and told Shelby to get some sleep. And he set aside his annoyance with her to give her the position in the first place. Riker used resources available to him better than Jellico did while in an even more time sensitive situation

The crisis was more critical but the methods necessary to achieve mission success are not comparable

And neither are the personal dynamics. Riker setting aside his annoyance with Shelby is not comparable to how Jellico should've handled the Riker situation, because Jellico wasn't just annoyed. He was dealing with direct insubordination, refusal to follow an order, & a toxic attitude, & ultimately a challenge to his authority

 

[The Wormhole]

Hell, Riker even barks at Picard a few times in Yesterday's Enterprise. Picard let's those slide because he knows the guy, & grants him some berth.

Picard and Riker are not friends at all in Yesterday's Enterprise. Riker at one point tries to offer his opinion, and Picard refuses to listen.

RIKER: Sir, if you'd like my opinion
PICARD: I think I'm aware of your opinion, Commander. This is a briefing. I'm not seeking your consent.

 

[Makarov]

That's kind of a stretch. Picard already knew Riker's opinion because earlier in the scene Riker had made it pretty clear what he thought and didn't want to blow up the ship for guinan's plan.

 

[Mojochi]

I wouldn't say Picard & Riker aren't on friendly terms in Yesterday's Enterprise. Like I'd said. Riker kind of barks at Picard all through the episode, because he thinks they shouldn't send to C back to their time, & Picard just kind of lets his orneriness slide with a forgiving face on, & does wtf he wants, because he's got final say. I doubt anyone who he wasn't enjoying a lasting trust with, & currently on good terms with, would be so forgiving, & frankly, it's one of Riker's flaws to assume everyone ought to be like Picard about those testy outbursts of his.

One could even suggest that for some masochistic reason, Picard maybe likes a 1st officer like that. He did after all, pick a guy based on that very trait that, that Will exercised less successfully with Desoto.

 

[Discofan]

It's a shame we never saw Shelby again for the rest of the series. Maybe as the captain of her own ship, rubbing Riker's nose in it...

 

[Makarov]

I'd like a follow up episode called "Significant Personnel Problems" it'd be like Disaster part 2 where half the crew is stuck in the turbolift because of the four shift rotation

 

[Roundabout]

From a storytelling angle, I wonder if the writers meant for the Riker/Jellico conflict to be seen as a parallel to Picard's ordeal with Gul Madred. I am not sure which story was supposed to have been considered the A story or B story of part 2 of "Chain of Command". They were both compelling.

While Picard was fighting for his life, Riker was fighting over duty. Both Picard and Riker were at a disadvantage. Both officers were up against a ruthless adversary. Both men's fates were at the hands of their respective tormentor/foe.

Picard didn't waver against all odds. In the end, he prevailed over Madred. Picard not only got his freedom back, but he also maintained his integrity. He didn't let Madred break him. From the beginning of his ordeal to the end, Picard rightly maintained "There are four lights!"

Riker didn't back down from what he thought was right in his struggle against Jellico. In the end, Jellico went humbly to Riker, pleading with Riker to pilot the shuttle.

Both Picard and Riker stuck to their principle and resilience, and each of them eventually bested their superior adversary. I don't know, but maybe that was the moral of the story as intended by the writers.

Were the two stories supposed to be seen not just literally, but figuratively, in tandem? Of course, I realize that not all viewers viewed the Riker/Jellico situation that way.

 

[JesterFace]

I'd like a follow up episode called "Significant Personnel Problems" it'd be like Disaster part 2 where half the crew is stuck in the turbolift because of the four shift rotation

Too funny.

Anyway, how about this..

 

[Kor]

Here's a crazy thought while I was re-watching The Best of Both Worlds, last night. What if Shelby had been Jellico's First Officer? How well would the two work together? Would they make a great team? Or would Jellico get pissed because Shelby does things her own way and is usually right?

A match made in heaven.

Kor

 

[Discofan]

A match made in heaven.

Kor

...or hell.

 

[Makarov]

The first draft of Star Trek Generations had Jellico instead of Soran and instead of getting back to his family in the nexus he was trying to get back to a four shift rotation

 

[Mojochi]

 

[Discofan]

You have a point. What's good for Picard is good for Jellico!

 

[STR]

Shelby did what she thought was best and didn't respect Riker's experience/judgement at all. If you combine that with Jellico's style where he expects the crew to just follows orders exactly, it doesn't seem like they would work well together whenever they disagree on something. She would eventually get into the exact same situation as Riker and get into a shouting match / relieved of duty.

Shelby would have taken her own initiative to implement some improved shift rotation instead of standard 4 shift rotation and Jellico would flip out. Or she would have tried her own idea at dealing with the cardassians and Jellico again would flip out.

This. Shelby would have been keelhauled in half the time Riker did. Shelby ain't got time for Jellico's bullshit power games.

From a storytelling angle, I wonder if the writers meant for the Riker/Jellico conflict to be seen as a parallel to Picard's ordeal with Gul Madred. I am not sure which story was supposed to have been considered the A story or B story of part 2 of "Chain of Command". They were both compelling.

While Picard was fighting for his life, Riker was fighting over duty. Both Picard and Riker were at a disadvantage. Both officers were up against a ruthless adversary. Both men's fates were at the hands of their respective tormentor/foe.

Picard didn't waver against all odds. In the end, he prevailed over Madred. Picard not only got his freedom back, but he also maintained his integrity. He didn't let Madred break him. From the beginning of his ordeal to the end, Picard rightly maintained "There are four lights!"

Riker didn't back down from what he thought was right in his struggle against Jellico. In the end, Jellico went humbly to Riker, pleading with Riker to pilot the shuttle.

Both Picard and Riker stuck to their principle and resilience, and each of them eventually bested their superior adversary. I don't know, but maybe that was the moral of the story as intended by the writers.

Were the two stories supposed to be seen not just literally, but figuratively, in tandem? Of course, I realize that not all viewers viewed the Riker/Jellico situation that way.

Yes. Jellico and Madred are meant to have parallels. Both are mostly competent in their respective jobs, but each tries to dominate others for its own sake.

That's where the similarities end and you can argue a matter of degrees too. Jellico is not a sadist. If you don't conform, he just ships you out, not torture you into compliance.

 

[Admiral2]

After re-watching BoBW again this weekend it finally hit me that we're all overthinking the thread question. You wanna know why Jellico and Shelby would be great together? They'd be united by a common enemy: Riker was a douche to both of them.

 

[JesterFace]

You wanna know why Jellico and Shelby would be great together? They'd be united by a common enemy: Riker was a douche to both of them.

Riker did have some reasons to be, as you put it, a douche.

 

[Discofan]

Riker did have some reasons to be, as you put it, a douche.

I'd be curious to know what they might be. Was he mistreated by his father or something? Wait, he was, wasn't he?

 

[JesterFace]

I'd be curious to know what they might be. Was he mistreated by his father or something? Wait, he was, wasn't he?

Just something from the top of my head without digging into the scripts...

I think Jellico demanded a bit too much too fast in a volatile situation. Like he said, he didn't have time for a "honeymoon" with the crew but he did start changing things, for example the shift rotation, something that could have waited until the current crisis and perhaps a war was averted.

Shelby started her mission on the Enterprise by questioning orders from a superior officer and then went down to the planet against orders without letting commanding officer know about it.

Riker did have some reasons to "be a dick", he may have overreacted to some level but he did have some reason to be difficult. Atleast when a lower ranked officer starts to do her own thing without letting him know about it.

 

[Admiral2]

Riker did have some reasons to be, as you put it, a douche.

I was waiting for someone to mention that, because the reason he had was that Shelby at first acted indifferent to his authority, which is exactly what he did to Jellico, and he reacted exactly the way Jellico did, by asserting that authority with little regard for Shelby's side of things.

So Riker's a hypocritical douche.

After watching BoBW, a fanfic formed in my head where Jellico and Shelby are old friends who meet in a bar and while there they commiserate over their mutual experiences aboard the Enterprise-D.

I can't wait to write it.

 

[Discofan]

Just something from the top of my head without digging into the scripts...

I think Jellico demanded a bit too much too fast in a volatile situation.

As was his right. Volatile situations are when you demand a lot from your crew. Normal situations are less demanding.

Like he said, he didn't have time for a "honeymoon" with the crew but he did start changing things, for example the shift rotation,

And he was right. He didn't have time, the situation with the cards demanded a quick response.

something that could have waited until the current crisis and perhaps a war was averted.

No, it couldn't. That was the point.

Shelby started her mission on the Enterprise by questioning orders from a superior officer and then went down to the planet against orders without letting commanding officer know about it.

She was right and was able to convince Picard that she was. Riker was in the way. Instead of spurring things on as was his role, he kept holding them back.

Riker did have some reasons to "be a dick", he may have overreacted to some level but he did have some reason to be difficult. Atleast when a lower ranked officer starts to do her own thing without letting him know about it.

He didn't have any reason for acting as he did. Picard kept telling Jellico taht he was a good first officer and Riker spent OOdles of energy proving him that he wasn't.

When you're a Captain in the middle of a crisis, you don't need a first officer that keeps getting in the way and delaying your orders. Jellico showed more patience than I would have in his place.

 

[JesterFace]

something that could have waited until the current crisis and perhaps a war was averted.

No, it couldn't. That was the point.

I wonder how changing crew rotations affected the situation... but I'm not a captain so, maybe it does?

But, drama creates stories.
If the crew functions perfectly all the time all they have to worry about are evil aliens.

 

[Mojochi]

Shelby started her mission on the Enterprise by questioning orders from a superior officer and then went down to the planet against orders without letting commanding officer know about it.

Not really. Her 1st scene is with Admiral Hanson, who lets it be known he intends to carry on with the mission by granting her a "wide latitude" in order to "Get things done". That is the tone which he set. She's a mission specialist with some liberty to call her own shots

She doesn't question anybody's orders right off. What she does is make the call to go early. She wasn't shown being ordered off the planet until Riker joined her. She was simply instructed that he'd be coming along with Laforge & Data. She just took Data & went sooner, because before Riker & Laforge became available, storm fronts altered the conditions, & jeopardized her research

She took the initiative to improvise a command decision, while other, higher ranking officers were unavailable, & frankly, that's exactly the kind of thing Hanson said she'd be doing. We're not even really certain she is a direct subordinate to Riker, such that she is tied down to his schedule. Riker just didn't like it, because he felt his toes being stepped on by the person who'd announced an interest in his job. So, he pulled rank on her, & she apologized & noted it for future reference

You'll recall that remark Hanson made to Picard about Riker looking like he's standing still, alongside up and coming officers? This is what that looks like. She'd already figured everything out by the time he got his butt down there, but ultimately, all she did was move up his time table, due to changing conditions

Unlike Riker holding back Jellico's time table by refusing to carry out a change in crew allotment, because he didn't agree with it. In both cases, Riker expects he has final say, & while he does in Shelby's case (It would appear) she too has been granted certain liberties by the admiral that brought her, so it's at least understandable & forgivable to assume she might make a misstep & someone's tender little toes might get in the way

 

[Tenacity]

Nice analysis.