Jellico/Shelby

[Discofan]

I don't think Picard should have brought up the question of Riker at all. If I were the Captain of a ship I wouldn't take it well if the ex-captain told me how I should handle my subordinates. And Jellico was right, time was short for him and he didn't have time to give his crew a honeymoon. If anything, it was Riker who should have adapted (quickly) to his new captain and not the other way around. I know that captain had impossible standards, like for example he expected his orders to be obeyed and not... not obeyed.

 

[Mojochi]

But I wasn't a biased-in-favor-of-Picard viewer.

lol you have to admit though that you were surely in the minority. For my take, I actually watched this episode the 1st time like everybody else "Hey this guy is being an asshole to our heroes", but after seeing the details over again, I began realizing my own bias & noticing that, yes, though he is brusk, there may be reasons for it, that I & the crew I'm biased towards, might be unaware of, & him being the captain means he needn't explain himself to anyone about those, if he thinks he shouldn't have to

It was my latest viewing of the episode that, for some reason, had gotten me to be more sympathetic towards Picard in that particular instance. Picard showed a lot class in the way he handled Jellico's remarks and the unsympathetic way Jellico handed over Picard's book.

I don't disagree. Picard is almost always classy when a social hurdle presents itself

It was specifically Jellico's remark, "and the chances are you won't be coming back from this mission of yours", that I thought was problematic. But not what he said about Riker and the other stuff. I am sure Picard already knew the risks of his mission.

Even when bringing up the Riker matter, Picard wasn't pushy. He was respectful and amiable.

It's not how he says it that matters imho. It's that he's saying it. It's a very polite criticism, but it's still a criticism of a sort, & Jellico's comment that you've quoted is a direct response to that criticism

Colleagues often joke with one another even under difficult circumstances. Could Jellico have humored Picard by saying something like, "I will be keeping the center seat warm for you until you return"?

That depends. Could Picard have kept his very polite comment about how Jellico is undervaluing Riker to himself? I think he could have, & because he didn't mind his own business, Jellico chose to speak up about everybody's business, & the truth he offered is that it's unpleasant business all around.

A pretty important component of that defense is not only that Jellico is now the captain, & Picard is not, but also that, as things look, Picard may never come back to be this ship's captain ever again, meaning Jellico could be there a good long while, & if Picard isn't taking this change of command seriously enough to get his effects in order, like a book sitting on the new captain's desk, then maybe he OUGHT to be.

Why does he leave his book & fish & whatnot behind anyhow? Is it because he assumes this is a temporary change of command? Because that's a pretty terrible assumption, & in a subtle way, a new guy coming in, to see the old guy didn't even pack up his shit, is a bit of a sly dig, that says " Don't get too comfy, I ain't gone for long." However, without Jellico rescuing him, he'd have been gone for good.

Look, I'm not saying Picard was wrong for speaking up about Riker. He had every right, & was very polite & dignified about, but it was a criticism, & IMHO Jellico had every right to push back with his own take on things, in an equally professional manner, even if it wasn't quite as dignified. Nobody is as dignified as Picard anyhow lol, but it needed saying imho, because Picard opened the door to judge each other's command postures

 

[Makarov]

That he rubs a few people the wrong way is not an indictment of his ability to command, because it's the situation that rubs the wrong way. There's no way for Jellico to be the good guy here, especially when everyone he is having to deal with would rather not be forced to make hard changes.

There totally is though. Get Riker on his side, in effect gaining more confidence from the crew, resulting in better response to his orders. It would have taken maybe a 2 minute conversation in his ready room to come to common ground. I am saying that any of the great captains would have been able to do it in the same situation.

And one could argue he shouldn't have to, the crew should just do their jobs, but Picard shouldn't have to give his morale boosting speeches to the crew either - he still does it.

I can completely sympathize with Jellico's predicament while also recognizing that his flaws contributed to the problems in the episode big time, not just on Riker's side

 

[Mojochi]

There totally is though. Get Riker on his side, in effect gaining more confidence from the crew, resulting in better response to his orders. It would have taken maybe a 2 minute conversation in his ready room to come to common ground. I am saying that any of the great captains would have been able to do it in the same situation.

And one could argue he shouldn't have to, the crew should just do their jobs, but Picard shouldn't have to give his morale boosting speeches to the crew either - he still does it.

I can completely sympathize with Jellico's predicament while also recognizing that his flaws contributed to the problems in the episode big time, not just on Riker's side

Yeah, but the only real problem was Will got relieved. He has no one but himself to blame for it imho. Everything else worked out fine, actually better once his influence was no longer an issue. It says a lot that once he's not the 2nd officer, things run rather smoothly. Jellico even takes Geordi's advice to bring Riker back in, & he's willing to eat a little crow because it's a solid call.

& personally I think there's no guarantee that ingratiating himself to the ship's 2nd officer, would promise an easy transition, when in fact the new captain intends on making drastic changes, that require long hard work from the entire crew for the foreseeable future, so they can ready the ship to his war specifications, by eliminating whole departments & transferring people to security, etc... It might also undercut your authority, for them to think you might be someone they can bargain with about it.

Nobody was ever going to be onboard for busting their ass for some guy they don't know, in order to prep for some mission they know squat about, & he either has no interest in explaining every last bit of it, no luxury of time for it, or can't declassify it, such that each and every gripe is quelled sufficiently enough for us to think he's being a nice guy.

Nobody's going to like any of this, was the mission handed down from the top, & it was brought aboard by one guy, who was never going to be liked for it, nor for moving in on their favorite guy's job. There was bound to be objections & disgruntlement, & even some sour grapes maybe, & he had no time to rub salve on those wounds for them. They just had to monkey up & get on with it, & would have, except that Will instigated an entire attitude dynamic that encouraged dissent from the top down, because he was 2nd to the top & people follow HIS lead too. That's bad form.

 

[Discofan]

It's not Jellico's problem if Riker can't adapt to the chain of command, which incidentally is the name of the episode(s). The only one who violated the chain of command is Riker. He expected to be put in charge in the absence of Picard and was bitter that he wasn't but he shouldn't have resented Jellico for that.

 

[Makarov]

But it's not just a Riker thing.. Troi went to Jellico and warned him the crew was resisting the changes. That's a ship wide morale issue. He then just puts the whole thing back on her because he doesn't want to deal with it.

The great captains would have dealt with it regardless of the time constraint, because it would have probably mattered if the war did start and then their morale was actually tested. We see time and time again in trek where crews go above and beyond when the captain takes a minute to inspire the crew. If you are saying Jellico had no responsibility to do that then you are basically arguing that all of those crews throughout trek were whiny and shouldn't have needed pep talks.

 

[Mojochi]

No, I'm saying that in most Trek series, the captain & crew are already like a family, & Jellico had no such familiarity with this one, nor the time to develop it sufficiently enough that they'd be completely at ease with the changes he was going to have to make, no matter what he said

He had to immediately expect their best, without any of the honeymoon or fanfare, under the most trying of circumstances, knowing full well that he'd never done anything to earn it. Within his narrow window of opportunity. He had only rank at his disposal, to "Get it done"

BTW, the word Troi used was "uncertainty", & she followed up by making my point for me. "Most of them served under Capt. Picard for several years. They knew him & what he expected... Perhaps we just need some time...". It's not that he doesn't want to. He's in no position to, due to the crisis. I honestly think his Cairo crew must see him entirely differently, & he has their trust, & treats them as friends he wants to inspire, & help. No one could be on a long term assignment & not have that. He just hasn't been given that option here maybe, & no one ever stops to think of it from that point of view

Honestly, if I had been Riker, I'd have tried to contact his Cairo 1st officer & gotten some advice, history, knowledge of the man, instead of just tunnel visioning it the way he did, thinking everything is his fault. We don't know that. This could all be coming from up above all their heads

Plus, putting Troi on the job IS doing something about it. She knows these people, council's them. No one is in a better position to see to them than her, in this crisis. That may not have been what she was hoping for, but it is a doable directive, which she didn't follow up on, because Riker was the one with the most severe attitude issue, & she never actually sat down to council him about it, until she was trying to shut him up in the middle of blasting off at the old man.

 

[Makarov]

No, I'm saying that in most Trek series, the captain & crew are already like a family, & Jellico had no such familiarity with this one, nor the time to develop it sufficiently enough that they'd be completely at ease with the changes he was going to have to make, no matter what he said

In the early seasons they're not family and there's more counter examples to that throughout the shows. He could learn a thing or two from Janeway. She rearranged her entire ship with Maquis after being thrown into the delta quadrant and had more success than Jellico did with a crew of starfleet's finest.

I think Troi was hoping he would take a moment and personally do something about the situation instead of giving it to her. She was trying to clue him in that some people skills were in order.

 

[Mojochi]

He could learn a thing or two from Janeway.

Who wrote her own mission, & answered to no one out there. He was assigned to complete a specific task on a deadline, by command

She was trying to clue him in that some people skills were in order.

In her biased opinion, of being one among them that he is meant to placate

 

[Schimpfy]

Jellico was a man on a mission. In his own biased view that mission didn't jive with the current way of life for the Enterprise crew so he's undoubtedly going to make changes. However, his view of how to deal with the Cardassians led him to jump the gun a bit, IMO. Yeah, he's got the experience. That's why he gets the posting. Though, no incoming CO who was worth their salt would alter the crew dynamic to such an extent at such a crucial time, but plot point: upset the glossy veneer of the crew and their operations in a break-'em-down-build-'em-up manner. It makes him look like a bad@ss after everything is said and done because there's not enough time in an episode to do it properly. For that, I give him kudos. For his conversation with Picard, on the other hand, he should get a swift kick in the nuts. It was just plain uncalled for and unnecessary.

 

[Mojochi]

I don't know if I'd have worded it exactly the same as him, but I'd say that when the guy you're replacing decides to voice up about how he thinks you're undervaluing this crew member or that one, you do have a bit of an invitation to start offering your own opinions in response, opinions on how an outsider could interpret an office that hadn't been vacated, & how that might reflect an assumption of their assignments being superficial or temporary

I'd think sending the message home that this is serious business is certainly in order. I'm not saying Picard wasn't taking it seriously, but the appearance of things could easily be construed that way, & he did just blindly walk into a trap, without ever having been shown preparing for that possibility

For the record, I don't think either Picard or Jellico were wrong for what they said to each other, but Picard did open the door, & Jellico was more than willing to step through it

Kind? Not really, but I imagine that if somebody questioned how Picard ran his ship, they might be in store for some verbal retorts from him too

 

[Schimpfy]

I believe that knowing full well the seriousness of the situation is perfect grounds for building camaraderie and not a time for brash remarks. That's the only part that bothers me. IMO, it really would've sucked heading out for a mission with the realization that you may not come back and your replacement is all like buh-bye. We see quite a few times that there's a sense of family among various captains on screen and it's almost like Jellico (at a glance) is either too good for this group or he's trying to kick Picard out with no visible support. It's odd that later on he seems to be a different type of man, but he still acts like he regrets how he dealt with Picard after the fact when he's getting ready to head back to the Cairo.

Honestly, I would've loved to have seen Jellico interact with Picard again at some point after Chain of Command.

 

[Roundabout]

For the record, I don't think either Picard or Jellico were wrong for what they said to each other, but Picard did open the door, & Jellico was more than willing to step through it

I don't remember who actually initiated the discussion about Riker in the ready room scene. But I do recall that there was a short back and forth conversation between Picard and Jellico about Riker before Picard offered up that advice. The advice wasn't offered up from out of the blue -- for what that's worth.

In any case, Picard gave that advice in good faith. It was friendly advice, he meant well. And Picard was as polite as can be. And Jellico was right to make his rebuttal and his counterpoint was valid. But Jellico's confrontational tone was a serious overreaction, imho.

There was no intent on Picard to undermine Jellico's authority with his advice, because the entire time that Picard was on the ship, Picard stayed out of Jellico's way. Jellico should have realized that.

In addition, once Jellico finished making his point, Picard graciously shut up. Picard, once again, showed that he respected Jellico's authority as captain of the ship and that he respected that Jellico wanted no more discussion of the Riker matter.

Also, Jellico's bringing up the point that Picard probably wouldn't be coming back, as well as, the manner in which he handed the book to show Picard out the door did seem in bad taste. It was an unseemly way to treat a fellow captain who had been nothing but courteous and magnanimous.

 

[Discofan]

I don't remember who actually initiated the discussion about Riker in the ready room scene. But I do recall that there was a short back and forth conversation between Picard and Jellico about Riker before Picard offered up that advice. The advice wasn't offered up from out of the blue -- for what that's worth.

In any case, Picard gave that advice in good faith. It was friendly advice, he meant well. And Picard was as polite as can be. And Jellico was right to make his rebuttal and his counterpoint was valid. But Jellico's confrontational tone was a serious overreaction, imho.

There was no intent on Picard to undermine Jellico's authority with his advice, because the entire time that Picard was on the ship, Picard stayed out of Jellico's way. Jellico should have realized that.

In addition, once Jellico finished making his point, Picard graciously shut up. Picard, once again, showed that he respected Jellico's authority as captain of the ship and that he respected that Jellico wanted no more discussion of the Riker matter.

Also, Jellico's bringing up the point that Picard probably wouldn't be coming back, as well as, the manner in which he handed the book to show Picard out the door did seem in bad taste. It was an unseemly way to treat a fellow captain who had been nothing but courteous and magnanimous.

The problem was not so much Picard intervention as the time when it was done, IE after Riker's attempt at undermining Jellico's authority by making it seem like he could just disobey an order and thinking he could get away with it. What if other people had seen it as a green light for passive-aggressive rebellion. Jellico would have found himself with a handful of backdoor mutineers.

 

[Mojochi]

I don't remember who actually initiated the discussion about Riker in the ready room scene. .

It was Jellico, in a way. Will had just contacted him about their arrival, & Jellico asked if the probe he'd requested had been launched. Riker confirmed that it had, & continued by saying he wasn't aware he'd been expected to report that. Jellico showed disappointment in thinking it was something that should've been reported, & in ruminating almost to himself, he mentioned the line about understanding why Will is still only a first officer, at which point, Picard felt the need to interject & defend Will

Again, Picard's well within acceptable professional social norms to be making that point, & Riker does in fact deserve a little defense. He is honestly a better officer than Jellico's thought reflects, & is not represented well by the turn of events that have shaped Jellico's perspective of him. If I were going to voice up about that like Picard, I might have said that differently too though, because Jellico isn't wrong to be disappointed

What I might have said instead is "I realize the events of the past few days have reflected poorly on Will's performance. I'll hope you can understand that many people know this to be largely uncharacteristic of the kind of officer he is. I'm hoping there's a way to make it work out" because that comment is not as much a criticism of the captain for his disappointment, in opposition to comment he found to be a mischaracterization. It's just pointing out that for some reason, this hasn't gone the way it should've.

No more than that should be implied, because then it starts to sound like blaming, & when a guy gets the impression he's being saddled with the blame for someone else being a disappointment, then he might pop back with his own less than pleasing impressions. By telling Jellico Riker would be such a better officer if YOU give him a chance, you're shitting all over the man. He ain't going to feel good about that, probably about the same as Picard feels about being reminded that his office hadn't been cleared out, or that his mission is likely more dangerous than anyone is willing to talk about

What it comes down to is that I only defend Jellico, because he's the guy no one would defend. He has no advocate to present his side of it, like Riker has Picard. I'm not approaching the debate from the staunch opinion that the crew are all entirely wrong. Honestly, only Riker is provably wrong a few times about anything imho. What I AM saying is that when everybody is led by the hand to assume Jellico is wrong about how he's doing things, just because our heroes don't like it, I have to be objective & say, but wait a minute, we have bias, in that we know these people. So lets assume we know this guy just as well, that what he's doing is just as valid or reasonable. Only then are we being impartial

 

[Makarov]

After the episode I imagine Starfleet would not be happy that Jellico couldn't work with Riker who they were already offering ship after ship. They can review the ships logs and see that the former captain and the ships counselor gave Jellico advice on working with the crew but he just steamrolled ahead.

Jellico is a great character but I think a bad ass that had flaws is the objective view of him. It is Riker and the enterprise crew that gets bashed to the point of parody in discussions a lot of the time to the point where I don't think the writers intended it

 

[Mojochi]

I could actually imagine future events entirely differently. After Riker's insubordination with Jellico, command assumes that it was all likely rooted in his public objection to being passed over for the post, raising the suspicion that the reason he'd passed up the Drake, Aries, & Melbourne, is because he thinks he's entitled to be the next captain of the Enterprise, even to the point that he'd be shown in an alternate future reality, clinging to his hard-on for her, as a dodgy old admiral

But during the course of the next year, where he does little to distinguish himself, it suddenly comes out that he'd aided in a decade long cover-up of a mutiny of fatal proportions, & in doing so, likely got references that furthered his early career.

Fittingly, those ship offers he'd been getting almost yearly, as a young commander, dry up completely for the better part of a decade, until after he contributes to saving the entire Federation from Borg again, & they give him one last shot

 

[The Wormhole]

After the episode I imagine Starfleet would not be happy that Jellico couldn't work with Riker who they were already offering ship after ship.

Doubtful. At the time, the Enterprise fell under Admiral Nechayev's authority, and she didn't seem to approve much of Picard at the time. Remember, a short time later in Descent she actually chews Picard out for not committing genocide against the Borg. She was very much Team Jellico, and if the issues between him and Riker were brought to her attention, she'd side with Jellico. If anything, I think if Jellico had stayed in permanent command of the Enterprise, it probably would have ended Riker's career. Yes, Riker had been offered three commands at that point, but Chain of Command takes place two and a half years after his last offer, and I imagine his decision to give up his promotion and return to being the Enterprise's XO after TBOBW at a time when Starfleet needed experienced command officers did not endear him to many at Starfleet Command. Hell, in TBOBW Hansen himself notes Riker was hurting his career turning down command offers, and that was before they lost nearly forty ships.

Certainly the novels don't think Jellico was in the wrong, given he got promoted to Admiral shortly after Chain of Command, and in the post-Nemesis era he is the head of Starfleet.

They can review the ships logs and see that the former captain and the ships counselor gave Jellico advice on working with the crew but he just steamrolled ahead.

Private conversations held in the ready room are not entered into the ships logs.

 

[Makarov]

In the general arc of TBOBW, Riker was doubting his choices at first but by the end he is over it. That is the encapsulated story of his dilemma. He's not meant to be a guy clinging to being a captain, and the only indication that his goal was to be captain of the enterprise is one debatable line he said in generations.

Outside of the first half of TBOBW is there anything in the show to indicate Starfleet is anything other than happy to have him serving there as first officer to Picard?

I assumed the ship's computer would be smart enough to start recording at certain times but could be wrong. In any case they might have noted it in their own personal logs.

 

[The Wormhole]

He's not meant to be a guy clinging to being a captain,

Becoming captain was his career goal, which he sacrificed his relationship with Deanna to try to obtain. And then he gets three offers and turns them all down, only to get promoted anyway. A field promotion, granted, but it would almost certainly have been made permanent had he not chose to go back to his old job of being XO. Even Tom Riker was shocked to learn Will Riker hadn't yet made Captain.

I assumed the ship's computer would be smart enough to start recording at certain times but could be wrong.

Even if that were the case, the Captain's ready room would almost certainly be exempt in the interests of protecting the captain's privacy. Plus, you know, secret things get discussed in there occasionally, like in Chain of Command where an off-the-record special ops mission is discussed in that room. You don't want to be discussing something like that in a room that has recording capabilities.