Jellico/Shelby

[Sgt_G]

an off-the-record special ops mission

It wasn't off the record, but rather highly classified.

In today's world, such briefings are held in the SCIF (Sensitive Compartmentalized Information Facility), or as they call in on NCIS, the Multiple Threat Assessment Center (MTAC). Leave your cell phones at the door.

In Trek world, one could presume that the main conference room and/or the captain's ready room qualify as a SCIF. In theory, the computer would probably send a signal to comm-badges telling them to shut down as you enter the room during classified discussions.

 

[Mojochi]

Outside of the first half of TBOBW is there anything in the show to indicate Starfleet is anything other than happy to have him serving there as first officer to Picard?

You mean besides the other three ships they offered, 4 if you count the one Picard made him captain of in Redemption? It's seemed everyone except Will thought he should move up in The Icarus Factor, & Jellico seemed to find it noteworthy enough to mention a couple times. The 1st time, it seems he's implying someone would need a "special" reason to stick around as 2nd. So over the course of 15 years, Riker himself, his dad, Picard, Jellico, Admiral Hanson, Shelby, & whomever else had offered him ships, all seemed to think he ought to want to captain ships & not just remain 2nd. How many more people should there be?

...and the only indication that his goal was to be captain of the enterprise is one debatable line he said in generations.

And he literally owns the thing in All Good Things...

Oh yeah, & that alien kid from Future Imperfect had mind reading neural scanners that extrapolated that Riker would like being the captain of the Enterprise too lol

 

[Brennyren]

He could learn a thing or two from Janeway. She rearranged her entire ship with Maquis after being thrown into the delta quadrant and had more success than Jellico did with a crew of starfleet's finest.

And do you remember what else Janeway had? A first officer who was absolutely committed to making this little staffing arrangement work, to the point where he personally quelled a rebellious faction, by letting them know loud and clear in the second episode that he wouldn't support a mutiny; to the point where he decked a Maquis loudmouth who refused to co-operate with a training initiative; to the point where he sucked up being treated like crap and left out of the loop on the plot to detect a spy.

Seems to me that if there was any lesson to be learned there, it would be, have a first officer who backs you up.

(That said, seriously? KJ is a TV captain, not a real one. She could have acted like Simon Legree and Captain Bligh rolled into one and multiplied by 10, and as long as the writers said her crew would love her and her methods would succeed, her crew would love her and her methods would succeed.)

 

[Makarov]

Can't argue that Chakotay was a bad ass enforcer for Janeway. But I thought that was because she had already shown him a great deal of respect by putting him in charge instead of Tuvok. She certainly connected with the guy and developed a friendship rather than just pulling rank. And she didn't chop his head off when he made a mistake or relieve of him command when they disagreed on the borg etc.. Anyway that gives me an idea for the next debate: Chakotay as first officer for Jellico

(That said, seriously? KJ is a TV captain, not a real one. She could have acted like Simon Legree and Captain Bligh rolled into one and multiplied by 10, and as long as the writers said her crew would love her and her methods would succeed, her crew would love her and her methods would succeed.)

None of the things we are discussing are real except for Ronny Cox's outstanding acting ability

 

[Admiral2]

None of the things we are discussing are real except for Ronny Cox's outstanding acting ability

It's true. Ronny Cox is THE MAN.

 

[Jedi Marso]

I think Shelby would have done fine under Jellicoe- he was a hard charging a-hole and so was she. If you think Shelby was bad looking from the top down, imagine working FOR her as the XO. In fact, Shelby and Jellicoe probably would have made a great team- Shelby could have been even MORE Shelby, and taken the heat off the captain and made him more liked and respected in comparison. It's the XO's job to be 'bad cop' when the situation requires so the captain can be 'good cop'. Shelby as XO would have made Jellicoe the 'good cop' to his crew.

 

[Schimpfy]

I think Shelby would have done fine under Jellicoe- he was a hard charging a-hole and so was she. If you think Shelby was bad looking from the top down, imagine working FOR her as the XO. In fact, Shelby and Jellico probably would have made a great team- Shelby could have been even MORE Shelby, and taken the heat off the captain and made him more liked and respected in comparison. It's the XO's job to be 'bad cop' when the situation requires so the captain can be 'good cop'. Shelby as XO would have made Jellico the 'good cop' to his crew.

I agree wholeheartedly.

 

[Discofan]

Jellico almost threw a monkey's wrench in Riker's meteoritic career... it took the latter only fifteen years to become captain of his own ship!!! The only one who's career moved slower was Kim!!!

 

[The Wormhole]

Jellico almost threw a monkey's wrench in Riker's meteoritic career... it took the latter only fifteen years to become captain of his own ship!!! The only one who's career moved slower was Kim!!!

Riker did that to his own career by turning down three commands offered to him and choosing not to make his field promotion to captain permanent after TBOBW.

 

[Makarov]

One point the show tried to make again and again with characters like Wesley , Worf and even Riker in TBOBW was that their choices were about more than just ranking up in starfleet. At some point his goals changed from fast tracking to captain and that's not portrayed to be a bad thing.

 

[Roundabout]

There was a line that Troi said about Jellico that always puzzled me.

The line was said after Jellico had stormed out of the room where he and his Cardassian counterpart were suppose to negotiate. Jellico was essentially playing mind games with the Cardassian.

RIKER: Well, I'll say this for him. He's sure of himself.
TROI: No, he's not.

Was that just a throwaway line?

The first time I saw the episode and heard the line, I thought that maybe later on Jellico would have a nervous breakdown or something. Unless I missed it, was there any scene later on where it was shown that Jellico wasn't sure of himself in anyway? To me, Jellico seemed like the same self-assured guy from beginning to end.

 

[Mojochi]

There was a line that Troi said about Jellico that always puzzled me.

The line was said after Jellico had stormed out of the room where he and his Cardassian counterpart were suppose to negotiate. Jellico was essentially playing mind games with the Cardassian.

RIKER: Well, I'll say this for him. He's sure of himself.
TROI: No, he's not.

Was that just a throwaway line?

The first time I saw the episode and heard the line, I thought that maybe later on Jellico would have a nervous breakdown or something. Unless I missed it, was there any scene later on where it was shown that Jellico wasn't sure of himself in anyway? To me, Jellico seemed like the same self-assured guy from beginning to end.

No. He kept steady the remainder of the episode, & nothing ever came of that comment from her, nor was she ever called up to answer for it. That's one reason why I think she's wrong. My theory is that she DID sense some uncertainty from him. Why else would she say that? However, there is a big difference from a person being uncertain that what they are doing will succeed, vs them being unsure of themselves, on the whole. (Which is what she implied) However, emotionally? It's almost indistinguishable. They are both forms of hiding some kind of doubt. Can she really tell the difference between doubt about what's going to happen vs doubt about himself? I doubt it, myself. lol

Jellico never gave any sign of doubting himself in how he should be handling this, but he did outright tell Picard earlier that no matter what they do, he expected this mission to fail, & war would be the result. So, yeah... uncertainty

The question then becomes how sensitive is Troi's ability to differentiate between someone who doesn't think what they are doing will succeed, but knows they are following the only course they can, vs someone who doesn't know what the hell they are doing at all, & is just bluffing that they do. Those are both forms of hiding how you feel, putting on airs etc...

Troi knows he's putting on a front with the Cardassians, & that's probably why she said that. That doesn't mean he doubts that he is proceeding accordingly, & since he played them rather well, I'd say he knew exactly what he was doing. I'd also say it is pretty poor judgement for her to undermine the captain by announcing his inner thoughts to subordinates, when that possibility of being mistaken, in some way, could exist

For all we know, that comment factored into Riker's assessment of the captain, overall, & could've played into why he ended up getting as extreme with him as he did, which ultimately got him relieved. Frankly, if we have to ask ourselves how sensitive Troi's ability is, it's probably wise to lean toward saying "Not very" given that she is so often so damn vague or inconsistent that it is literally a joke to some fans

 

[Discofan]

Jellico put Troi in her place in about ten seconds.

 

[Makarov]

He sure showed her how it's done. Ignore the ship's counselor advice, relieve the first officer, and then request the first officer's help again

 

[Discofan]

He sure showed her how it's done. Ignore the ship's counselor advice, relieve the first officer, and then request the first officer's help again

Jellico must have thought that Riker was a better pilot than a first officer.

 

[Mojochi]

He didn't request the 1st officer's help again. He asked for the help of the best pilot on the ship, after he took one of his officer's advice to do so. Besides, Troi didn't offer any advice. Her only advice was to give them all some time. It was the same advice Picard offered. What no one seemed to be hearing was the man say that this mission doesn't afford him the luxury of time to give them. Picard doesn't know Jellico's mission & neither does Troi. So I guess they should just trust in the chain of command

 

[Discofan]

He didn't request the 1st officer's help again. He asked for the help of the best pilot on the ship, after he took one of his officer's advice to do so. Besides, Troi didn't offer any advice. Her only advice was to give them all some time. It was the same advice Picard offered. What no one seemed to be hearing was the man say that this mission doesn't afford him the luxury of time to give them. Picard doesn't know Jellico's mission & neither does Troi. So I guess they should just trust in the chain of command

Picard rarely took Troi's advice, he mostly used her as a kind of lie detector on the bridge and she failed at that more often than not.

 

[Makarov]

How was the time factor any more important there than it was in BoBW with a cube headed towards earth anyway?

At the end of BoBW Shelby and Riker clearly have some respect for one another after working together. Meanwhile Jellico walks off at the end and nobody says a word because nobody wanted to go to war under that guy... morale matters.

In any case not even Jellico would agree that Troi is useless. All he did was ask her change uniform for formality not "put her in her place", good lord.

 

[Mojochi]

Picard rarely took Troi's advice, he mostly used her as a kind of lie detector on the bridge and she failed at that more often than not.

Well, to be fair. Her counseling/therapy? Almost never. Her advice? Not much. Way less than he preferred Guinan. Her recommendations though? Without counting them up, I'd say she probably stood at 50%... which is far more than Worf ever got lol

How was the time factor any more important there than it was in BoBW with a cube headed towards earth anyway?

BoBW is not a war. It's only similarity to the Cardassian situation is that it could be called a crisis, & frankly, were it not for one singular Hail Mary pass from Data & a compromised Picard, the ship would've fallen to that crisis. Jellico's plan literally went off without a hitch... Well one hitch. No one was pleased at the prospect of Picard falling into Cardassian hands, but even that he over came with his methods.

If you want a more valid example of how different things would be on a war time Enterprise... then all you need to do is watch Yesterday's Enterprise. Everything is different. That, or some close approximation of it, is the Enterprise Jellico is tasked with making... without the luxury of any grace period to do it. It had to be ready for a failed mission & being on the spear tip of a long term battle front, in days.

Really, this idea that imminent war would require no alterations to the ship & crew, & that Jellico should've just come on board & done nothing unless Riker & his department heads like it 1st, is just silly. We've actually seen how different a war Enterprise is.

At the end of BoBW Shelby and Riker clearly have some respect for one another after working together. Meanwhile Jellico walks off at the end and nobody says a word because nobody wanted to go to war under that guy... morale matters.

Jellico was dealing with direct insubordination, & had to relieve the ship's XO. You think there might have been a few hard feelings over that? Point being, Riker had it coming for his behavior. Shelby did nothing even close to meriting such a disciplinary action, & socially there was much less bad blood as a result. It's an unrealistic comparison imho

 

[Discofan]

Well, to be fair. Her counseling/therapy? Almost never. Her advice? Not much. Way less than he preferred Guinan. Her recommendations though? Without counting them up, I'd say she probably stood at 50%... which is far more than Worf ever got lol...

I'd say that Worf lost a lot of credibility in the eyes of Picard when he looked like he was about to shoot the screen with his phaser.