Janeway "Deserved" To Die? (Spoilers?)

[The Grim Ghost]

I don't think she deserved to die, but she should have been put on trial for torturing someone during Equinox. To me, that is where she crossed the line from bad decision making into criminal activity.

On her Endgame crimes...meh. My personal view is that people in the present have no obligation to maintain a future that has not happened for them yet.

 

[KimMH]

response to Guy Gardner

Spoiler: Desting trilogy/Singular Destiny spoiler

the Borg "Queens" are just fronts - like Queen Amidala's handmaiden/double in SW. the real mind behind the Borg is an ancient tedchno consciousness cut off form her own people and is trying to recreate them via Borg but has been unsuccessful so her drones are zombie-like.  Killing hte front/double does not end the consciousness of the Borg as it's originator was still safely in the DQ

highly recommended read!

 

[barnaclelapse]

That's really quite a fascinating perspective. I was never very invested in VOY, so I never gave it a lot of thought.

Now that I am, I have to admit that you could be quite right.

 

[kimc]

I just don't think it's fair to single her out as uniquely bad because of it, and say that it's some Karmic consequence. Other Captains and other lower ranking officers have done as bad or worse.

SHE CUT A CREWMAN IN HALF!



How much trouble do you think Kirk would have got into if McCoy wanted to keep Spocks marbles back in Star Trek III, so he'd ordered an extraction?

So are you saying that Janeway deserved to die because she saved the lives of both Neelix and Tuvok? Wow.

 

[JB2005]

JB225 left out the one point that cannot be argued with, and that is whether you believe she destroyed the Borg are not - and I do because I don't buy the books, I don't think their take on the Borg is right, the books are as riddled with non continuity as you say Voyager is. - you have no proof that the time line "Admiral Janeway" changed was better than the time line after she changed it.

You are assuming that she destroyed and it's just that an "assumption", she could have by the one act made things much, much better. Admiral Janeway could just as easily been the "hero" that saved the Federation, by taking out the Borg. She could have been the "hero" of the federation because she brought a gifted engineer "B'Elanna Torres" back in time to give the federation new technology that could have saved them. Perhaps a sane Tuvok, would have did something that changed lives for the better. YOU DON"T KNOW.

Janeway deserves life, she deserves happiness and she deserves a whole lot more than your "karma".

Brit

If Janeway deserved to die, so then must Kim and Chakotay for their actions in 'Timeless'.

So arguably do Picard and his crew for First Contact - I say arguably because the Borg changed things, they just changed them back, but how do they know the Borg way isn't the way it's meant to be? With the events as described briefly in Full Circle, I haven't read Destiny so don't understand it fully, I assume everyone on Earth would've eventually become part of the perfect Caeliar and be very happy indeed?

So do Kirk and his Crew for The Voyager Home. Oh I suppose he did die, but not for a while he did plenty inbetween including hanging around in the Nexus for 70 years.....

Every time anyone in any trek changed the time line, and it happens more than I've listed above, it could be argued that they're responsible for everything bad that follows. Janeway I feel is being singled out here....

Okay I don't think that you can count Janeway as a hero if she destroyed the Borg, and here is my reasoning.

The Borg are drones they are slaves, forced into servitude and made to do all kinds of things against their will. If Janeway did destroy the Borg then she has served all of these innocent peoplea death sentence.

Picard refused to in I-Borg, because it was tantamount to genocide, and that was when the Feds still were under the impression that the Borg were all a single collective race carrying out their own will. But they're not, they are all subjugated. Collective is a misnomer it implies free-will. But killing all the borg for things they have been forced to do against their will, just so it will enable you to get home 16 years early? Sorry, no dice.

As for Picard and Kirk, they were taking actions which would save their entire planet, and possibly the Federation as we know it. Janeway was making things more convenient for her crew. As for Kim and Chakotay, yes they are also similarly implicated (in fact watching Timeless, I still regard it as a show where I am watching the bad-guys win for once)

And I admit I did single out Janeway, but only so far as I wanted to discuss a point which had come up in another thread. If you want to go through it all and discuss it feel free.

I just don't think it's fair to single her out as uniquely bad because of it, and say that it's some Karmic consequence. Other Captains and other lower ranking officers have done as bad or worse.

SHE CUT A CREWMAN IN HALF!



How much trouble do you think Kirk would have got into if McCoy wanted to keep Spocks marbles back in Star Trek III, so he'd ordered an extraction?

So are you saying that Janeway deserved to die because she saved the lives of both Neelix and Tuvok? Wow.

At least here you can argue by killing Tuvix she saved two crewmen over one...from a utlilitarian perspective it can be seen as logical...maybe
JB2005

 

[KimMH]

sacrificing Tuvix - who possessed the knowledge of both Tuvok and Neelix - for the gamble of getting them both back = two crewmen out of one but at a cost I'm not sure I'd have been willing to pay. I am still unsure how I feel about the Tuvix decision - he did plead for his life. It made me feel the same way ENT's Similtude did - conflicted.

 

[kimc]

sacrificing Tuvix - who possessed the knowledge of both Tuvok and Neelix - for the gamble of getting them both back = two crewmen out of one but at a cost I'm not sure I'd have been willing to pay. I am still unsure how I feel about the Tuvix decision - he did plead for his life. It made me feel the same way ENT's Similtude did - conflicted.

Well if I were to join Starfleet I'd be wanting a captain like Janeway who would not be willing to let me go so easily - no matter how "shiny" the new crewperson was.

 

[JB2005]

sacrificing Tuvix - who possessed the knowledge of both Tuvok and Neelix - for the gamble of getting them both back = two crewmen out of one but at a cost I'm not sure I'd have been willing to pay. I am still unsure how I feel about the Tuvix decision - he did plead for his life. It made me feel the same way ENT's Similtude did - conflicted.

Well if I were to join Starfleet I'd be wanting a captain like Janeway who would not be willing to let me go so easily - no matter how "shiny" the new crewperson was.

If I were to join any military I wouldn't want my CO to sacrifice another life because they prefered me...

 

[Praetor]

Ye gods, please don't let this turn into the "Tuvix" thread part two!

 

[Guy Gardener]

Poor Joe Carey.

Hells, they didn't even bury Hogan.

It was an execution Kimc. The death penalty.

Talos IV?

When some one says "Please don't kill me."

It takes a cold woman to kill the bloke anyways.

 

[kimc]

If I were to join any military I wouldn't want my CO to sacrifice another life because they prefered me...

That "new life" was a melding of two existing lives. Tuvix himself said it: Neelix and Tuvok are ALIVE in me. He had the will to live of two men. He was also "holding those two men hostage".

Janeway made the right call. No, it wasn't an easy one but something tells me if she had gone the other way we would still be having this conversation only it would be "That bitch let Tuvok and Neelix die."

 

[Praetor]

My worst fears have come true.

 

[Thestral]

The assumption being made with this argument is that the future Admiral Janeway changed was a wonderful future. For all we know the change saved millions of lives because she destroyed the Borg. So just maybe she actually deserves eternal gratitude for what she did.

Assuming there's a conversation happening about the novel continuity, then we must accept the events of Destiny as well as Before Dishonor. And in that case, I think we can assume that the future Admiral Janeway changed was (relatively) wonderful. Why? Becuase in the future of Captain, then Admiral, Janeway, billions upon billions of Federation citizens (not to mention Klingons) and 40% of Starfleet were butchered by the Borg - and would've been wiped out entirely if not for the brilliance and influence of two other female Starfleet captains (okay, and Will Riker) and the desire of the Borg to go home to their actual family.

And what caused the Borg to go apeshit and WTFblitz the Alpha Quadrant? Well, you can't discount that they are, after all, the Borg. However, you can argue that Janeway repeatedly poking them in the eye over several years, culminating in blowing up their giant bus station, pissed 'em off a little over the edge.

That said, I don't believe in karmic distribution of "justice," and in no way did Kathryn Janeway "deserve" to die the way she did. On the other hand, it was completely fitting and heroic, and I expect we'll see her back at some point.

 

[exodus]

The assumption being made with this argument is that the future Admiral Janeway changed was a wonderful future. For all we know the change saved millions of lives because she destroyed the Borg. So just maybe she actually deserves eternal gratitude for what she did.

I think that the label of “crazy” is more wishful thinking on some fans part.
Admiral Janeway changed time, it was a deliberate act but that doesn’t mean it was a self-centered act but rather for reasons we saw and probably a lot we didn’t, an act of love.

How do we know she changed anything at all, but rather simply slipped over into another time line much like Spock Prime in the new movie?

Where was the Temporal Integrity Commission? That in its self suggests that “Endgame” Admiral Janeway’s time line was somehow wrong in the first place.

Should Janeway have died for her actions, absolutely and positively NO!

I love the Character of Captain Kathryn Janeway and I want her very much alive. Is this an unbiased opinion, no.

Actually your argument is a paradox, if time shouldn't be changed then you are saying the fates, or the deity of you choice has ordained things to be a certain way. If that is true then no one would have to ability to go back in time or change anything in the first place.

Brit

I agree with you, Brit.

Archer, Kirk, Picard & Sisko are all legends. They all are positive parts of Starfleet history. Why is Janeway, the first featured woman labeled selfish and a criminal?

She pioneered the Delta Quaderant, made first contact with more species than Kirk, crippled the Borg, gathered the most info in Starfllet history to date and got her ship & crew home. They wrote Janeway to be a legend and hero as well.

None of these captains are written to be villains.
TPTB wouldn't have her change time if it were going to destroy millions of lifes.


JB2005, Picard told his crew in "First Contact": "Kill any assimilated crewman you see. Believe me, you'll be doing them a favor." He knew they were innocent people, "were" innocent people. We saw how corrupted Seven was were she was freed. In "Unity" we saw how freed Borg fall back on their old ways without proper guidance. Freeing each drone is equal to sending millions of refugees off into the quad. to fend for themselves. You can't free them unless you're going to be responsable for them and have the resources to care for them.

 

[kipron]

On her Endgame crimes...meh. My personal view is that people in the present have no obligation to maintain a future that has not happened for them yet.

Quoted for frakking truth.

Admiral Janeway's love for Seven gave her compelling reason for being selfish. She was redeemed by destroying the Hub, but still paid a price in the end.

Irrespective of any of that, the Captain simply did the best she could in a crazy scenario. She's the one that convinces the Admiral to do something good. And in those final, crucial few moments when the Borg Sphere was bearing down on Voyager and the future technology was all for naught, it was Captain Janeway who figured out how to get them to Earth.

And in one of Trek's few real examples of irony, the crew get back to Earth only after having realized that Voyager was their home all along.

Endgame may not be what we were expecting or even what we wanted, but in many ways, it's still pretty good.

 

[Thestral]

I agree with you, Brit.

Archer, Kirk, Picard & Sisko are all legends. They all are positive parts of Starfleet history. Why is Janeway, the first featured woman labeled selfish and a criminal?

She pioneered the Delta Quaderant, made first contact with more species than Kirk, crippled the Borg, gathered the most info in Starfllet history to date and got her ship & crew home. They wrote Janeway to be a legend and hero as well.

None of these captains are written to be villains.
TPTB wouldn't have her change time if it were going to destroy millions of lifes.

Well, hold on. Are we talking in-universe, or out-of-universe here? Because in-universe, you're right, they are all legends for one reason or other. All five of them. That includes Janeway, who did in fact do all those things. Well, I dunno about "pioneered" the Delta Quadrant, more like sped through it ASAP to get home, but nonetheless... And in-universe, nobody knows about future-Janeway's role in Endgame except Janeway and whoever she tells. Because the timeline was erased/reset. Janeway going off to face the Borg cube in Before Dishonour in no way detracts from her legendary status in-universe, I'd say. I don't think anywhere in Destiny or its follow-ups (I may well be wrong) is it implied by any characters that the Borg assault is her fault. She is not labeled "selfish" or "a criminal," and carries on the proud tradition of female captains like Erika Hernandez and Rachel Garrett.

Out of universe, however? I think Jon Archer may in fact get as much, if not more crap than Janeway from fans. And Sisko often gets called on for his actions in poisoning an entire Maquis colony, let alone In the Pale Moonlight.

And who's to say that TPTB wouldn't have had Janeway change time if it meant sacrificing millions of lives? Why can't we let the unintended consequences of a character's actions be explored, if TPTB choose to? It's not like she could foresee what would happen, let alone the Caeliar element...

 

[exodus]

I agree with you, Brit.

Archer, Kirk, Picard & Sisko are all legends. They all are positive parts of Starfleet history. Why is Janeway, the first featured woman labeled selfish and a criminal?

She pioneered the Delta Quaderant, made first contact with more species than Kirk, crippled the Borg, gathered the most info in Starfllet history to date and got her ship & crew home. They wrote Janeway to be a legend and hero as well.

None of these captains are written to be villains.
TPTB wouldn't have her change time if it were going to destroy millions of lifes.

Well, hold on. Are we talking in-universe, or out-of-universe here? Because in-universe, you're right, they are all legends for one reason or other. All five of them. That includes Janeway, who did in fact do all those things. Well, I dunno about "pioneered" the Delta Quadrant, more like sped through it ASAP to get home, but nonetheless... And in-universe, nobody knows about future-Janeway's role in Endgame except Janeway and whoever she tells. Because the timeline was erased/reset. Janeway going off to face the Borg cube in Before Dishonour in no way detracts from her legendary status in-universe, I'd say. I don't think anywhere in Destiny or its follow-ups (I may well be wrong) is it implied by any characters that the Borg assault is her fault. She is not labeled "selfish" or "a criminal," and carries on the proud tradition of female captains like Erika Hernandez and Rachel Garrett.

Out of universe, however? I think Jon Archer may in fact get as much, if not more crap than Janeway from fans. And Sisko often gets called on for his actions in poisoning an entire Maquis colony, let alone In the Pale Moonlight.

And who's to say that TPTB wouldn't have had Janeway change time if it meant sacrificing millions of lives? Why can't we let the unintended consequences of a character's actions be explored, if TPTB choose to? It's not like she could foresee what would happen, let alone the Caeliar element...

My out of universe answer would be: it's TPTB's universe not ours, so if they say it's a happy ending then we have to accept it's a happy ending. We don't assume after Romeo & Juliet died the famlies kept fighting, we accept the ending( while bitter sweet) was still a good one. So if TPTB show a happy crew flying toward Earth, then I have to accept the ending and all it entails was positive.

 

[Thestral]

Err... ok, yes. And if they don't say it's a happy ending...?

The editors and writers of Pocket Books (ie TPTB) are still telling stories in the 24th Century Trekverse, the same one which the Voyager and her (now-dispersed) crew inhabit. So if they have decided to give certain members of the Voyager crew a less-than-happy ending or other life situation, we thus have to accept that, right?

 

[Tachyon]

Ye gods, please don't let this turn into the "Tuvix" thread part two!

My thougts exactly.

*leaves from the thread without any intention to ever come back*

 

[Michael]

Ye gods, please don't let this turn into the "Tuvix" thread part two!

Well, it needn't. We can settle it now and just say that I'm right and everyone else is wrong. You see, perfect solution.