Janet Lester to Kate Janeway

[RobertScorpio]

We were watching Turnabout Intruder this weekend. And you know, it is strange that no women had ever commanded a Starship up to that episode, and probably a little further after the events of that episode.

Now I thought we were led to believe that in that 'rosey' future we had gotten over the stigma of sexism. And yet it would appear as if that wasn't the case at all. Sexism flurished all the way to the 23rd century it would seem.

I know that in The Voyage Home we see the first female Captain. She looks to be in her 40s at least so she had to be a cadet, I would think, as far back as TOS the series. So, good for her. And in TNG we see another female captain.

Janet Lester seems to have a good gripe. I could see a woman in the late 23rd century, held back by men, losing it and saying 'hey, what the fuck? Why is the 'man' keeping us down?'

(Ummm, by the way. I don't remember seeing any African-American male captains either)

Does Roddenberry blame these issues on censors? Would the censors not allow a woman or blackman to command a ship back in those days? Or was it ratings? Mostly white/male audience. Did GR ever talk about this aspect of Trek?

But kudos to DS9 and Voyager for proving that you don't really have to be a white dude from Iowa to command a ship. Sisko and Janeway did pretty good!!!

Robert
Scorpio

 

[number6]

Janice Lester was a deranged psycho ex. When she referred to Kirk's "world of starship captains," she wasn't talking about the lack of female captains in Starfleet, she was referring to Kirk being married to his ship and his career.....oh and that he's gay.

 

[RobertScorpio]

Janice Lester was a deranged psycho ex. When she referred to Kirk's "world of starship captains," she wasn't talking about the lack of female captains in Starfleet, she was referring to Kirk being married to his ship and his career.....oh and that he's gay.

Did ENTERPRISE show any female captains of Starships from Earth? If it did, then it would discount the TOS episode. But I have on more than one occasion heard the actors talk about that episode and how it did imply there were no Female captains...heck, they (censors) didn't even want a female XO. So I could easily see this.

The only canon is what was said and what was shown on TREKs. And by that measure alone there were no Female Captains until we saw the lade in TREK 3.

Rob
Scorpio

 

[number6]

Janice Lester was a deranged psycho ex. When she referred to Kirk's "world of starship captains," she wasn't talking about the lack of female captains in Starfleet, she was referring to Kirk being married to his ship and his career.....oh and that he's gay.

Did ENTERPRISE show any female captains of Starships from Earth? If it did, then it would discount the TOS episode. But I have on more than one occasion heard the actors talk about that episode and how it did imply there were no Female captains...heck, they (censors) didn't even want a female XO. So I could easily see this.

The only canon is what was said and what was shown on TREKs. And by that measure alone there were no Female Captains until we saw the lade in TREK 3.

Rob
Scorpio

There was a woman in command of the NX-02 on ENT. The complaint about a woman being second in command was more about GR casting his girlfriend in a major role than about sexism in Starfleet. They may have never thought about Female captains in 1966, but the fact that there is one in TVH retcons the possibility that there probably would have been if TOS had the opportunity to show that.

 

[sbk1234]

Enterprise did feature the captain of the Columbia, the second NX class ship, who was also of Hispanic background. So it would seem, that despite the realities of 1960's TV production, the fictional world of Star Trek did in fact get past the petty prejudices of modern humans.

 

[sbk1234]

I was beaten to the punch!

 

[RobertScorpio]

Enterprise did feature the captain of the Columbia, the second NX class ship, who was also of Hispanic background. So it would seem, that despite the realities of 1960's TV production, the fictional world of Star Trek did in fact get past the petty prejudices of modern humans.

Well..then that is good news.

As for Majel Barret's NUMBER ONE? I hadn't heard before it was because his girl friend was in the role. In fact, at the time they did The Cage, I thought he was still married to another woman. GR states several times they didn't want a female in second command because it wasn't realistic...

Rob
Scorpio

 

[JiNX-01]

We were watching Turnabout Intruder this weekend. And you know, it is strange that no women had ever commanded a Starship up to that episode, and probably a little further after the events of that episode.

Now I thought we were led to believe that in that 'rosey' future we had gotten over the stigma of sexism. And yet it would appear as if that wasn't the case at all. Sexism flurished all the way to the 23rd century it would seem.

I know that in The Voyage Home we see the first female Captain. She looks to be in her 40s at least so she had to be a cadet, I would think, as far back as TOS the series. So, good for her. And in TNG we see another female captain.

Janet Lester seems to have a good gripe. I could see a woman in the late 23rd century, held back by men, losing it and saying 'hey, what the fuck? Why is the 'man' keeping us down?'

(Ummm, by the way. I don't remember seeing any African-American male captains either)

Does Roddenberry blame these issues on censors? Would the censors not allow a woman or blackman to command a ship back in those days? Or was it ratings? Mostly white/male audience. Did GR ever talk about this aspect of Trek?

But kudos to DS9 and Voyager for proving that you don't really have to be a white dude from Iowa to command a ship. Sisko and Janeway did pretty good!!!

Robert
Scorpio

There was a black commodore on Kirk's Court Martial panel.

Enterprise did feature the captain of the Columbia, the second NX class ship, who was also of Hispanic background. So it would seem, that despite the realities of 1960's TV production, the fictional world of Star Trek did in fact get past the petty prejudices of modern humans.

Well..then that is good news.

As for Majel Barret's NUMBER ONE? I hadn't heard before it was because his girl friend was in the role. In fact, at the time they did The Cage, I thought he was still married to another woman. GR states several times they didn't want a female in second command because it wasn't realistic...

Rob
Scorpio

Rumor has it that Roddenberry was able to balance a wife and a girlfriend.

 

[JNG]

It was NBC who had the problem with the female Number One, but the community has always been going on speculation as far as what their problem actually was. (No surprise they wouldn't go on the books with certain kinds of statement.) We can only draw conclusions based on the changes that were made for the second pilot.

 

[The Wormhole]

Worth mentioning, not only did Enterprise show a female captain, we also say a few female admirals. All background extras with no dialogue however.

 

[Nedersong]

in the episode 'The Cage" the role of the first officer was a woman.

However, the attitude that Janice speaks of comes from a Chauvinistic society, of which this society still is. You can thank the Christian religion for that influence since all the Christian religion wants to do is force women to be slaves to their biology and only sees them as baby making machines who should be barefoot and preggers in the kitchen.

 

[SFRabid]

in the episode 'The Cage" the role of the first officer was a woman.

However, the attitude that Janice speaks of comes from a Chauvinistic society, of which this society still is. You can thank the Christian religion for that influence since all the Christian religion wants to do is force women to be slaves to their biology and only sees them as baby making machines who should be barefoot and preggers in the kitchen.

Oh my! Here we go again. Another "blaim religion for the worlds problems" post. But wait, you might be right. Look at all the women leaders in non-Christian areas of the world. Middle East, Africa, China and the Far East. Japan. All these places are well known for equal rights for women, arn't they?

 

[Jeri]

...I know that in The Voyage Home we see the first female Captain. She looks to be in her 40s at least so she had to be a cadet, I would think, as far back as TOS the series. So, good for her. And in TNG we see another female captain...

I'm guessing in TNG you're thinking about Rachel Garrett in Yesterday's Enterprise. The first one I remember in TNG is Captain Tryla Scott in Conspiracy. (She was unfortunately seen eating worms.) But there were also female admirals in TNG; one was Admiral Connaught Rossa, grandmother of Jeremiah (Jono) in Suddenly Human. Let's see, there was retired Admiral Norah Satie in The Drumhead; and Admiral Nechayev.

 

[THE_FETT]

However, the attitude that Janice speaks of comes from a Chauvinistic society, of which this society still is. You can thank the Christian religion for that influence since all the Christian religion wants to do is force women to be slaves to their biology and only sees them as baby making machines who should be barefoot and preggers in the kitchen.

Congratulations! You just won THE FETT's coveted golden award of inbred ignorance for the week.

 

[pookha]

there was a big discussion about aspects of this within the tos forum.
for me lester was a nut case who claimed kirk had wanted to kill her who instead killed some of her own team members as a means of luring kirk to her.

reallly we only actually saw a handful of the starship captains.

for instance we only see wesley in ultimate computer.
we only learn of the last name of the captain of the exalbur.

we do in tos see women in high postitions of authority.

a woman jag officer was put in charge of kirks courtmartial.
one of the commissioners who can have higher power then a captain was female.

to me it makes sense that lester tried to become a captain but flunked out like the guy in breads and circuses.

but her craziness at the time in turn about intruder wouldnt let her see it as her failure.

just how wacko was janice..

COLEMAN: You killed every one of the staff. You sent them where you knew the celebium shielding was weak

Believe me, it's better to be dead than to live alone in the body of a woman

You had your chance, Captain Kirk. You should've smothered the life in me

as to why kirk didnt counterdict her when she said what she did..
well that is addressed in the episode..

KIRK: Janice, you must remain absolutely quiet. Those are doctor's orders, not mine.

to start debating her to kirk would have been going against doctors orders..
so he tried to keep her calm by at the time going along with her madness.

really lester in the end knew very little about being a commander despite..

Now the years I spent studying every single detail of the ship's operation will be tested. With a little experience, I will be invulnerable to suspicion. At last I attain what is my just due. Command of a starship. All the months of preparation now come to fruition.

right away she makes a fundamental mistake in the protocol for dealing with starfleet..

SPOCK: Sir, I believe Starfleet will have to be notified that our rendezvous with the starship Potemkin will not take place as scheduled.
KIRK: Mister Spock, if you’d concentrate on the areas for which you are responsible, Starfleet Command would've been informed already.
SPOCK: Since the captain usually deals with Starfleet in these matters, I assumed that my suggestions might be deemed interference.

so much for all her prep and study which was filtered through her loony madness,


bones right away knowns something is wrong with lester/kirk.,,

MCCOY: Development of emotional instability and erratic mental attitudes since returning from that plane

hmm erratic mental attitudes.. yeah lets trust someone like that on whether there were female captains.



and kirk as lester had this interesting comment..

JANICE: Yes. To get the power she craved, to attain a position she doesn't merit by temperament or training

notice gender isnt mentioned..

and what else does nut case lester do,,'she orders an execution that isnt against starfleet regs.

so much again for her knowing all about starfleet.

 

[Neroon]

...I know that in The Voyage Home we see the first female Captain. She looks to be in her 40s at least so she had to be a cadet, I would think, as far back as TOS the series. So, good for her. And in TNG we see another female captain...

I'm guessing in TNG you're thinking about Rachel Garrett in Yesterday's Enterprise. The first one I remember in TNG is Captain Tryla Scott in Conspiracy. (She was unfortunately seen eating worms.) But there were also female admirals in TNG; one was Admiral Connaught Rossa, grandmother of Jeremiah (Jono) in Suddenly Human. Let's see, there was retired Admiral Norah Satie in The Drumhead; and Admiral Nechayev.

No, I think Robert's right. I'm betting he's probably referring to the unnamed captain played by the late Madge Sinclair, captain of the USS Saratoga - the Federation vessel to first encounter the probe. She may or may not have been the first female captain, but she predates everyone from TNG.

 

[Green Shirt]

There was a black commodore on Kirk's Court Martial panel.

Lionel Ritchie?

 

[Neroon]

There was a black commodore on Kirk's Court Martial panel.

Lionel Ritchie?

- well played!

I suppose we could have called him Commodore Kimbridge......

 

[Jeri]

...I know that in The Voyage Home we see the first female Captain. She looks to be in her 40s at least so she had to be a cadet, I would think, as far back as TOS the series. So, good for her. And in TNG we see another female captain...

I'm guessing in TNG you're thinking about Rachel Garrett in Yesterday's Enterprise. The first one I remember in TNG is Captain Tryla Scott in Conspiracy. (She was unfortunately seen eating worms.) But there were also female admirals in TNG; one was Admiral Connaught Rossa, grandmother of Jeremiah (Jono) in Suddenly Human. Let's see, there was retired Admiral Norah Satie in The Drumhead; and Admiral Nechayev.

No, I think Robert's right. I'm betting he's probably referring to the unnamed captain played by the late Madge Sinclair, captain of the USS Saratoga - the Federation vessel to first encounter the probe. She may or may not have been the first female captain, but she predates everyone from TNG.

I wasn't correcting Robert. I plainly said "in TNG..." in reference to that remark. I granted the one from the movie.

 

[Neroon]

My bad. I mis-read that last portion of his post. It was probably influenced by this same type of discussion I've had before about "first black female" and "first female" captains.