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James Kirk in "Discovery"?

^^^
Ah - the irony (and no this isn't directed to the person above) in that:
Me:


TNG fans: Well, the custom changed...

Subset of TNG Fans:


ST: D Fans: Well, maybe the custom changed/was abandoned...

Subset of TNG fans: Lame excuses....
:vulcan::rommie:
And the same goes for arguing how TNG or the Picard series can rely on the past while scoffing at the same arguments for Discovery. Picard is the main character, so obviously he should catch up with everyone else he worked with 20 years ago on their favorite show... but a main character being involved with the family that raised her her whole life is unbelievable fanwank. Let's promote O'Brien to the main cast under the command of the guy whose wife was killed by Picard, also let's spend 4 seasons expanding on Worf's backstory, but using Pike (who appeared in one episode), expanding on the Sarek family and making him a recurring character, oh dear god the oversaturation.

It's obvious that some people just aren't interested in TOS, didn't want a prequel set in that era, and don't care for Burnham as a character, which is all fine. But for some reason they feel the need to perform these mental gymnastics to try to convince themselves and others that it's all wrong, instead of simply admitting they have subjective preferences.
 
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Hmm, didn't think of Gary, he could show up as an ensign or Lt on the Disco(ball) and get some kind of back story.. since its non existant at this moment. In general, I don't mind filling in some back story on some of the back ground caracters from Tos like Pike, #1, and others.
 
And the same goes for arguing how TNG or the Picard series can rely on the past while scoffing at the same arguments for Discovery. Picard is the main character, so obviously he should catch up with everyone else he worked with 20 years ago on their favorite show... but a main character being involved with the family that raised her her whole life is unbelievable fanwank. Let's promote O'Brien to the main cast under the command of the guy whose wife was killed by Picard, also let's spend 4 seasons expanding on Worf's backstory, but using Pike (who appeared in one episode), expanding on the Sarek family and making him a recurring character, oh dear god the oversaturation.

It's obvious that some people just aren't interested in TOS, didn't want a prequel set in that era, and don't care for Burnham as a character, which is all fine. But for some reason they feel the need to perform these mental gymnastics to try to convince themselves and others that it's all wrong, instead of simply admitting they have subjective preferences.

DS9 was pretty obviously the most fanwanky of the Trek series overall. In addition to what you mentioned, remember that Kira was originally supposed to be Ro. They made attempts to bring back many TNG characters - some of which failed (Q, the Duras sisters, Tom Riker) and some of which became recurring (Gowron, Lwaxana). Most fundamentally, everything in the show - minus the Prophets, the wormhole, and the Dominion - was just deepening existing Trek lore, from the Cardassian occupation of Bejor, to the Maquis, to the Ferengi.

The interesting thing is out of the Berman Trek shows, DS9 was actually the most distinctive and least like TNG in spite of this, because they changed the setting, and the format in which they told stories. In contrast, VOY and early ENT tried to escape elsewhere in space and time respectively, but given they had the same underlying framework as TNG and were telling the same kind of stories, it didn't seem distinctive even when they avoided bringing back familiar faces and races.

Still, I don't think the relationship of DS9 to TNG is analogous to the relationship between DIS and TOS. I mean, past the pilot, did Sisko ever mention Picard again? And even after Worf was brought onto the show, I don't remember him and O'Brien really talking much about the good old days on the Enterprise. The little callbacks we did get were meant as nice Easter eggs to the viewers, but there was never once the feeling that the TNG characters were overshadowing those on DS9. Which is unfortunately what I'm getting fro Burnham this season - that she mainly exists to be the exposition-fairy for Spock, who has yet to be seen. I prefer Season 2 overall to Season 1 so far, but I preferred Burnham's role in the first season, because at least she seemed to be integral to the narrative as something other than a sibling to a guy far more famous than she is.
 
because at least she seemed to be integral to the narrative as something other than a sibling to a guy far more famous than she is.
I generally disagree, but even if that is part of her story I find that idea fascinating. It's like the jokes I've heard about being "Bob Ross' brother" recently. It's a fun idea of how being related to someone famous can impact you, and the idea that how those who regard the famous person as important is just a sibling or peer to someone else.
 
I generally disagree, but even if that is part of her story I find that idea fascinating. It's like the jokes I've heard about being "Bob Ross' brother" recently. It's a fun idea of how being related to someone famous can impact you, and the idea that how those who regard the famous person as important is just a sibling or peer to someone else.

While I understand what you're getting at, we should remember that within universe at this point Michael is clearly much, much more famous (even if some of it is infamy) than Spock is. Spock is really only important in our eyes as a viewer. If anything, during the last year or so of Spock's life he's had to deal with living her her shadow, rather than the other way around.
 
I made a joke on another thread about Kirk being a Section 31 agent, and Yistaan responded with his own well-liked post:

Great, now you gave them the idea to feature young Kirk on the Section 31 show as Mirror Georgiou's right hand man. :shifty:

The more I think about it, the more this joke idea appeals to me. You have a character (young Kirk), a Lt. or Lt. Cdr. who is sidelined after the Farragut incident. His whole crew downright obliterated by an uncaring universal anomaly. He may have seen action in the Klingon War, too.

He's suffering from serious PTSD on Earth when recruited by Section 31. He could be our hero, not Georgiou, in the S31 show. Originally seeing validity in its actions to work around and above the law for the good of the Federation, as he grows more aware of the Section's sinister side, he also gains more control over his faculties.

He realizes that the core mission of Starfleet is diametrically opposed by the criminal activities of Section 31. The right hand man of Georgiou, who he only sees as a retired, highly decorated Starfleet captain, her attempts to manipulate him fail, and he enters a precarious situation with an unhinged commander in an unauthorized, officially nonexistant agency that he must navigate. The show ultimately becomes Kirk vs. Georgiou. Good vs. Evil. Right vs. Wrong. Law and order vs. Anarchy and chaos.

Partitioning Kirk to the S31 show and leaving Spock to make cameos on Discovery might also be good for decompartmentalizing these two TOS characters from each other.
 
My memories are fuzzy, when was it said he 'escaped' from S31? I thought all Pike knew was that Spock requested leave and left, his whereabouts were unknown to him. Isn't that what he told Burnham, eventually?
We’re not saying he escaped from 31, we’re saying 31 kidnapped him from Starbase 5.

Also Pike knew where Spock was.
 
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My memories are fuzzy, when was it said he 'escaped' from S31? I thought all Pike knew was that Spock requested leave and left, his whereabouts were unknown to him. Isn't that what he told Burnham, eventually?g

Nope. At first, Pike told Burnham that Spock was simply on leave, to protect Spock's privacy. Later Pike revealed that Spock had committed himself to a psych ward at a starbase and asked that his family not be notified. Later still, Amanda attempted to visit Spock at the starbase but was turned away. Finally, Pike got word that Spock had allegedly escaped from the psych ward and is now missing.

And that's where we stand now. There's been no mention of Section 31 with regards to Spock at this point; that's just folks speculating on-line.
 
Aren't the Talosians supposed to appear at some point? Perhaps they have something to do with the "Spock murdered people" (i.e. an illusion).
 
Aren't the Talosians supposed to appear at some point? Perhaps they have something to do with the "Spock murdered people" (i.e. an illusion).

I sure hope not. I don't want there to be a TOS crutch to solving the problem. I'd rather this Spock just be a blood-thirsty murderer.
 
I sure hope not. I don't want there to be a TOS crutch to solving the problem. I'd rather this Spock just be a blood-thirsty murderer.
Not a TOS crutch but a really interesting species that was only seen once and is dangerous enough that Starfleet put an execution order on even going to their planet.

It was never really shown just WHY Starfleet was so paranoid of them. This might explain it a little better.
 
I sure hope not. I don't want there to be a TOS crutch to solving the problem. I'd rather this Spock just be a blood-thirsty murderer.

Noted. I think there's a third answer. Though if not, you have some interesting preferences. "Avoid TOS at all costs! All costs! This far and no farther!" To paraphrase the Talosians, "Even if the connection were to make sense, you prefer to have Spock as just a blood-thirsty murderer. This makes you too violent and extreme of a gatekeeper for our needs."
 
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It was never really shown just WHY Starfleet was so paranoid of them.

That they could manipulate their ships/people from light years away would seem to be enough. Sometimes things are explained just fine, and adding to it is just piling on for the sake of piling on.
 
That they could manipulate their ships/people from light years away would seem to be enough. Sometimes things are explained just fine, and adding to it is just piling on for the sake of piling on.
I feel that way about every appearance of Klingons after Errand of Mercy, sometimes :klingon:
 
I would just use Armus as an example. I don't need follow up episodes to know why Picard left warning beacons in orbit of Vagra II. The episode does a pretty good job of explaining it. "The Cage"/"The Menagerie" does a good job of explaining the need General Order 7.

If they have something new to do with the Talosians, great. If it is just something they're using to get out of whatever corner they've written themselves into, I'll be disappointed.
 
While I understand what you're getting at, we should remember that within universe at this point Michael is clearly much, much more famous (even if some of it is infamy) than Spock is. Spock is really only important in our eyes as a viewer. If anything, during the last year or so of Spock's life he's had to deal with living her her shadow, rather than the other way around.
Which I personally like.
 
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