Jadzia Dax death

[Farscape One]

If you haven't read it, there's a DS9 novella set after the series that took a good look at Trill society, especially the Joined vs. Unjoined tension. It covers a lot of ground and I rather enjoyed it. IIRC one major plot point is that it gets leaked to the public that many more Trill could be joined if they wanted to be than was generally believed.

I see where you're coming from in terms of "erasing" who they are, but I imagine many people would view it as "enhancing" who they are. As an example, I used to do medieval reenactment, and the idea of having the memories and experiences of someone who'd been there for the actual events is intriguing.

I see what you are getting at, and it's one thing to want memories of a previous era through someone else's eyes. Joined Trill, based on what we've seen in the franchise, is more than just having memories of past lives and eras. It's a blending of all previous hosts and the current host.

Best way I can illustrate my point: a STARGATE SG-1 episode called "LIFEBOAT" had Daniel Jackson's head mixed with 10 or so other people. One of them was an engineer from the ship SG-1 discovered. He showed Dr. Frasier a glass of water. As soon as you add more water, that original formation of molecules is forever changed because it's impossible to take out precisely what you added. Same principle with the joined Trill.

I don't think it's a coincidence that shortly after the events of "INVASIVE PROCEDURES", we start seeing Dax do a wide variety of things that we never expected, such as being more open (you can see how much more of a relaxed conversationalist she is while talking to Pel in "RULES OF ACQUISITION") and wrestling an alien in the morning ("PLAYING GOD"). Having been briefly joined with Verad may have had no lasting impact or effect on him, but the Dax symbiote remembers, and Jadzia said as much at the end. Because of this, we basically saw two versions of Jadzia Dax in the series... the original was more cerebral and withdrawn, while post Verad was outgoing, active, and much more playful sexually.

In that way, it's a sort of death of personality. While it definitely can be argued it's an enhancement, like how we see Jadzia act before and after Verad, it still comes dangerously close to wiping away a personality.

(In a sense, joined Trill represent a sort of slow version of a regular human lifetime. Each 'host' is like an era or decade for a person... we are different people as children, as teenagers, and as adults in our 20s, 30s, 40s, etc. I am certainly a different person as a married man in my 40s than a bachelor in my 20s... most of my values and personality are the same, but I have a different set of priorities, my views on certain subjects have changed, etc. In that way, we also have a sort of death of personality simply because of experiencing life over decades.)

I guess I went too far off this tangent, but I hope I've made sense.

 

[DonIago]

I see your point, but it's also a decision that the hosts are choosing to make when they become Joined. Informed consent, if you will. We don't really see any evidence that there's any coercion or deceit involved (Ezri was kind of rushed through things, but she was an exceptional case, and we don't really know what kind of education she got before she committed).

In a way this is like the question of whether anyone would join the Borg voluntarily. It's hard for us to imagine, but maybe there are people or entire races who consider subsuming their individuality to a greater collective to be a huge honor, and if it was more of a genuine collective and less of a form of enslavement, I can see how it might be enticing to people.

As someone who currently lives by himself as a bachelor and often uses his friends and family as sounding boards for counsel or emotional relief, I can easily imagine how wonderful it might be to have my own internalized voices with centuries of experience to call upon. Adira's experiences in DISCO, at least through the end of S3, seem to paint it as a unique and wonderful experience if it's something that one desires.

Really, in a way being Joined is a way of achieving a form of immortality.

 

[Trekker09]

Interesting points....
To me, there’s just no human parallel to a Trill hosting the Dax symbiont….it seems beyond the brain’s ability to contain the entire consciousness-- all life experience, memories, emotions-- of say, 6 previous hosts at once. It would be equivalent to having 7 brains.
Trek writers were inconsistent about Trills. In TNG “The Host” Odan and Kareel have forehead ridges, unlike Jadzia or Ezri, who have spot patterns like Kamala's in "The Perfect Mate." Also, Odan refuses to go through the transporter because of possible injury to the symbiont. Jadzia and Ezri seem to have no problem beaming.
Still, the whole concept of the Dax symbiont is intriguing, to compare with the Vulcan mind meld, the katra, and the many instances of characters being possessed by aliens.

 

[DonIago]

It's certainly something I'd be curious to experience for myself as long as I retained the option of backing out if I didn't like it.

As far as doing it on a long-term/permanent basis...I'd need to know a lot more about it before I could really weigh in on that.

 

[fireproof78]

In a way this is like the question of whether anyone would join the Borg voluntarily. It's hard for us to imagine, but maybe there are people or entire races who consider subsuming their individuality to a greater collective to be a huge honor, and if it was more of a genuine collective and less of a form of enslavement, I can see how it might be enticing to people.

This is something that has occurred in human history, and is a part of human nature to a certain degree, depending on cultural background. The Greeks and Romans had different variants on this theme, including the sense of duty to one's country, submitting oneself in a way for the sake of the greater whole. Others were more religious, involving rituals where an initiate would "become one" with their deity through shared experience, i.e. going through what the deity had supposedly gone through in the story. I'm sure Jung would have quite a lot to say about the collective unconsciousness and the individuals joining of it.

Obviously, this is not the same as the Trill, where there is a clear joining of another consciousness, to the point that neither is the same again. But, this idea is not as foreign, at least in the course of human history.

 

[Farscape One]

I see your point, but it's also a decision that the hosts are choosing to make when they become Joined. Informed consent, if you will. We don't really see any evidence that there's any coercion or deceit involved (Ezri was kind of rushed through things, but she was an exceptional case, and we don't really know what kind of education she got before she committed).

In a way this is like the question of whether anyone would join the Borg voluntarily. It's hard for us to imagine, but maybe there are people or entire races who consider subsuming their individuality to a greater collective to be a huge honor, and if it was more of a genuine collective and less of a form of enslavement, I can see how it might be enticing to people.

As someone who currently lives by himself as a bachelor and often uses his friends and family as sounding boards for counsel or emotional relief, I can easily imagine how wonderful it might be to have my own internalized voices with centuries of experience to call upon. Adira's experiences in DISCO, at least through the end of S3, seem to paint it as a unique and wonderful experience if it's something that one desires.

Really, in a way being Joined is a way of achieving a form of immortality.

Agreed that they all go through it voluntarily and informed, and devote their lives to the pursuit of being joined. I was just sounding a possible underlying reason why so many would choose to be joined.

Regarding the Borg, I personally would never volunteer for such a thing. Putting aside the horrific idea of half or more of my body becoming technology, the notion of losing completely my sense of self and identity is in many ways worse than death. Like Picard said to the Borg when he was abducted, "We would rather die." I'm with him.


And being joined, I do agree that it's a form of immortality. But the question becomes, what part of you becomes that immortal link in the chain? The unjoined you when you first get the slug, or the combined, new version of you? I think the key to answering many of the joining questions lies in that one being answered first.

Interesting points....
To me, there’s just no human parallel to a Trill hosting the Dax symbiont….it seems beyond the brain’s ability to contain the entire consciousness-- all life experience, memories, emotions-- of say, 6 previous hosts at once. It would be equivalent to having 7 brains.
Trek writers were inconsistent about Trills. In TNG “The Host” Odan and Kareel have forehead ridges, unlike Jadzia or Ezri, who have spot patterns like Kamala's in "The Perfect Mate." Also, Odan refuses to go through the transporter because of possible injury to the symbiont. Jadzia and Ezri seem to have no problem beaming.
Still, the whole concept of the Dax symbiont is intriguing, to compare with the Vulcan mind meld, the katra, and the many instances of characters being possessed by aliens.

I would say only "The Host" was the real inconsistency about Trills. At the time the episode was produced, DS9 wasn't even a thought. The spots were put on because the executives wanted to keep Farrell's face intact. I think DS9 was pretty consistent about Trills overall.

 

[kkt]

I see what you are getting at, and it's one thing to want memories of a previous era through someone else's eyes. Joined Trill, based on what we've seen in the franchise, is more than just having memories of past lives and eras. It's a blending of all previous hosts and the current host.

Best way I can illustrate my point: a STARGATE SG-1 episode called "LIFEBOAT" had Daniel Jackson's head mixed with 10 or so other people. One of them was an engineer from the ship SG-1 discovered. He showed Dr. Frasier a glass of water. As soon as you add more water, that original formation of molecules is forever changed because it's impossible to take out precisely what you added. Same principle with the joined Trill.

I don't think it's a coincidence that shortly after the events of "INVASIVE PROCEDURES", we start seeing Dax do a wide variety of things that we never expected, such as being more open (you can see how much more of a relaxed conversationalist she is while talking to Pel in "RULES OF ACQUISITION") and wrestling an alien in the morning ("PLAYING GOD"). Having been briefly joined with Verad may have had no lasting impact or effect on him, but the Dax symbiote remembers, and Jadzia said as much at the end. Because of this, we basically saw two versions of Jadzia Dax in the series... the original was more cerebral and withdrawn, while post Verad was outgoing, active, and much more playful sexually.

In that way, it's a sort of death of personality. While it definitely can be argued it's an enhancement, like how we see Jadzia act before and after Verad, it still comes dangerously close to wiping away a personality.

(In a sense, joined Trill represent a sort of slow version of a regular human lifetime. Each 'host' is like an era or decade for a person... we are different people as children, as teenagers, and as adults in our 20s, 30s, 40s, etc. I am certainly a different person as a married man in my 40s than a bachelor in my 20s... most of my values and personality are the same, but I have a different set of priorities, my views on certain subjects have changed, etc. In that way, we also have a sort of death of personality simply because of experiencing life over decades.)

I guess I went too far off this tangent, but I hope I've made sense.

That's a good interpretation. My thought was Jadzia was still getting used to the Dax symbiont in season 1. Pre-joining Jadzia sounded very studious, serious, alone a lot... and Dax we know was outgoing, borderline bit of a bully, not much interested in acquiring a lot of dry technical knowledge (like a science officer). In season 1 we were seeing more of Jadzia's personality, which was still resisting Dax's. By the middle of season 2 and "Playing God" she'd absorbed some more of Dax's skill with people, ability to form her own opinions and then charge ahead, and playfulness. My interpretation at the time was just that it took a year and a half to two years to combine Dad's personality with Jadzia's, but her brief joining with Verad is just as likely to have pushed it along.

 

[fireproof78]

The unjoined you when you first get the slug, or the combined, new version of you?

I think it's a bit of both, almost like a Gestalt like being, where the whole is different than the sum of its parts. All the memories make up the symbiote, but there is still more to the symbiote. So, I imagine the former, with the newer blending emerging in combination of the host and symbiote. But, part of you remains within the symbiote, as evidenced by some of the Trill rituals.

 

[DonIago]

I guess one interesting aspect of the Trill in contrast to the Tok'ra, a similar situation on SG-1, is that in the latter case the host retained the ability to speak entirely independently(?) of the symbiote on occasion, whereas in DS9 we never had any clear way of knowing how much of Jadzia or Ezri we were seeing versus the hybrid entity or possibly the symbiote speaking without regard for the host. It might have been an interesting angle to explore, but OTOH maybe TPTB wanted to stay away from any indication that there was anything potentially problematic about being Joined ("Equilibrium" notwithstanding).

 

[Farscape One]

I guess one interesting aspect of the Trill in contrast to the Tok'ra, a similar situation on SG-1, is that in the latter case the host retained the ability to speak entirely independently(?) of the symbiote on occasion, whereas in DS9 we never had any clear way of knowing how much of Jadzia or Ezri we were seeing versus the hybrid entity or possibly the symbiote speaking without regard for the host. It might have been an interesting angle to explore, but OTOH maybe TPTB wanted to stay away from any indication that there was anything potentially problematic about being Joined ("Equilibrium" notwithstanding).

Good comparison with the Tok'ra. But in their case, when the host dies, the symbiote goes and nothing of the host is brought along. Though the exceptionally long life a host has while a Tok'ra or Goa'uld inhabit them is the next best thing to immortality.

Goa'uld are parasites, which the Tok'ra are Goa'uld but actually share their host versus taking it over fully, while the Trill symbiotes are more of a blending. One really does wonder, though, how much of the symbiote asserts itself over the host.

 

[DonIago]

I don't think SG-1 firmly established that the symbiote retains nothing of the host? The Goa'uld loved to spout that line, but they did it because it benefitted them to do so.

 

[Farscape One]

I was referring to the Tok'ra. Example: Jolinar. After Lantesh was killed, he was accidentally put into that Lieutenant in "SUMMIT"/"LAST STAND". I don't think we ever heard anything from Lantesh himself while Jolinar was in this new body. Now, the symbiote does retain the memories of their hosts, but their personalities are gone. It would be like listening to a recording of someone rather than actually talking to them in a zoom chat.

The statement you mentioned likely comes from "PRETENSE", when Zipacna makes the claim, which is clearly false. Skaara, Carter, Jacob, O'Neill, and Vala are the most blatant examples of a host still retaining themselves after being blended.

 

[DonIago]

IIRC (and I may not), it's stated (by Goa'uld and possibly Teal'c) prior to "Pretense" that nothing of the host remains, but there's also evidence to the contrary; that's just the episode that actually digs into the claim. Looking back, it may have been one of the best dialogues in the series.

I don't think I've ever seen a symbiotic relationship portrayed in which the host's personality remained accessible after the death of the host and the transition of the symbiote to a new host, so I don't really think it's that remarkable that SG-1 doesn't do that either. Though when Adira accesses her memories it may be that the visions of their prior hosts are of their Unjoined personalities? That seems unlikely but not impossible?

 

[fireproof78]

IIRC (and I may not), it's stated (by Goa'uld and possibly Teal'c) prior to "Pretense" that nothing of the host remains, but there's also evidence to the contrary; that's just the episode that actually digs into the claim. Looking back, it may have been one of the best dialogues in the series.

I don't think I've ever seen a symbiotic relationship portrayed in which the host's personality remained accessible after the death of the host and the transition of the symbiote to a new host, so I don't really think it's that remarkable that SG-1 doesn't do that either. Though when Adira accesses her memories it may be that the visions of their prior hosts are of their Unjoined personalities? That seems unlikely but not impossible?

Well, using SG-1 Carter was able to recall some of Jolinar's memories and feelings and share them with Martouf while they were imprisoned by Sokar. And, later on, when O'Neill "volunteered" for a Tok'Ra mission he was able to execute some influence over the symbiote in his attitude of "leave no man behind" in that mission, and ended up getting captured by Ba'al in the process.

Also, isn't the whole ritual that Dax goes through were each former host is able to talk to the current host indicate that some aspects of the unjoined personalities?

 

[DonIago]

Was Dax communing with the former hosts as Unjoined or Joined personalities though?

 

[Farscape One]

I don't think we have a way of knowing, because all of those hosts were long dead.

I think the only way we'd know is by seeing a Trill before and after a joining and the host's death to really see.

 

[fireproof78]

Was Dax communing with the former hosts as Unjoined or Joined personalities though?

I took it as unjoined but that could be in error. Been a while since I've seen it and Trill stuff, especially in DS9, was not my favorite stuff.