Issues with the Films

[Christopher]

Unfortunately, the Trek universe kind of encourages racial profiling with aliens. Most alien species are depicted as stereotypes, with an entire planet full of people all having the same uniform culture, values, language, religion, politics, even the same tailor and barber.

 

[sonak]

Yeah, that's a good point, but a lot of sci-fi does that. I guess for a lot of reasons, chiefly that you only have to think of cultural characteristics for one culture, rather than many on a planet. And then, the silly conceit that every member (or almost every member) would choose to follow that cultural path, and THEN the absurd extent to which they take this. It's also to do the social allegory thing: "look, Ferengi culture is capitalism run amok!" Easier to make statements when there's less complexity.

 

[Bry_Sinclair]

GEN: Generations was essentially a disappointment. The stupid holodeck promotion ceremony that replaced the re-entry jump by Kirk.

I liked the sense of camaraderie among the 'D' crew. Also who wants to see Kirk in spandex? If he was so bored with his retirment, why not become a consultant for some interstellar company, or sign up for a civilian ship, or move into an Orion brothel. Retirement doesn't mean the end of your life.

Data became obnoxious as soon as his emotions chip was put in.

As Geordi says in sickbay, "you've been behaving like a human." Sometimes humans are obnoxious (some more than others IMO). The emotion chip was very OTT, but Data has never had emotions before and they prove to be too overpowering for the android. It made sense to me. Also, where was Mr Tricorder for the other films?

The flagship of the fleet fought an 80-year-old bird of prey to a draw (both destroyed).

If they'd slipped in the line about the shield emitters taking damage, making it impossible for them to remodulate shields, I would have been happier. As with all TNG battles the D's size works against her. The BoP should have been all over her, constantly moving and hitting the D from every angle. Instead they remind me of two sailing ships passing each other slowly and firing cannons, no dynamic manoeuvres or movement.

Picard getting his butt handed to him so badly by Soren, that it barely registers as a pause across a bridge.

This annoyed the hell out of me too. Picard may be a diplomat but he's also an officer, trained to fight. Granted the character is in his 60s at the time, but still.

Kirk getting killed for a civilization no audience even cared about (that's what made it so disappointing. The film did not give us a chance to care about the civilization. Also, I don't remember anyone telling Kirk about this civilization. All Picard told Kirk is that they need to stop Soren from destroying a star).

I don't think they needed to show you anything about the Veridians. All you need to know is that millions of lives hang in the balance, it doesn't matter who they are Starfleet still has to keep them safe - no matter the consequences.

Riker still ends up being a Commander instead of a deserved demotion to Lt. Commander. That was a huge disappointment when I saw there were no repercussions to his abysmal failure at Viridian III. He was worse than Harriman.

How did Riker fail? The ship was essentially sabotaged, and he put up a good fight I'd say. Yes he lost the Federation Flagship and there would be a hearing, but his quick thinking saved the crew and stopped the Duras sisters (a continual threat to the stability of their Klingon allies, who were also about to get their hands on a weapon of mass destruction). Riker keeps his cool throughout the fight and seems in perfect control. Unlike Harriman he is on a tried and tested ship, with a crew that have proved themselves, and doesn't have a smug Kirk casually strolling around the bridge.

Also who knew Troi was a half decent pilot?

-B

 

[BillJ]

If they'd slipped in the line about the shield emitters taking damage, making it impossible for them to remodulate shields, I would have been happier.

WORF: They have found a way to penetrate our shields.

That pretty much tells the audience all they need to know.

 

[Mr Silver]

The ability to remodulate shields may have gone offline with the first couple of hits from the Duras Sisters

Another issue for me is in FC, when the Borg kidnapped Data, I mean surely he would have been able to easily overpower them and then carry out the plan to release the Warp Plasma as earlier agreed upon? The Borg had never assimilated a Soong-Type Android and therefore had no reference regarding Data's anatomy, there was no way for them to know how to deactivate him, unless of course they assimilated Textbook information, but Data was quite secretive about his "Off-Switch" and as far as I can tell only the senior Enterprise officers knew of it, Sure you can justify when Picard was assimilated about them gaining knowledge of Data, but even then...Not only that the way they were able to activate his Emotion Chip, they shouldn't have been able to do it, only Data could do so and he said earlier "Your attempts to assimilate me will be unsuccessful, it can be argued that if they could gain access to his inner workings like that, then they should have been able to extract the codes to gain access to the main computer

Data is completely unique, aside from 8472, he is the only known lifeform that is truly immune to the Borg, he couldn't be swayed by them, even with his emotion chip activated as he played along and of course they couldn't even assimilate his mechanical and computerised systems, it would have cut FC short, but Data would have been able to easily overpower the Borg, having gained access to Engineering, found a solution to shut down the hive mind and release the Assimilated Enterprise crewmembers and then along with Geordi find a way to repair the Phoenix and return to their own Century in time for dinner

 

[sonak]

Why should it have been so easy for Data to overpower a bunch of Borg drones? He's very strong yes, but he's not a comic book superhero, either, and Borg drones aren't weak.

And why can't the Borg assimilate Data? They're WAY more technologically advanced than he is, and so should know how to penetrate his programming. I mean they don't HAVE to do the whole "adding new mechanical appendages" thing with him, do they? All they really have to do for assimilating is link him with the Borg collective mind, right? That should be technologically achievable.

 

[BillJ]

Why should it have been so easy for Data to overpower a bunch of Borg drones? He's very strong yes, but he's not a comic book superhero, either, and Borg drones aren't weak.

And why can't the Borg assimilate Data? They're WAY more technologically advanced than he is, and so should know how to penetrate his programming. I mean they don't HAVE to do the whole "adding new mechanical appendages" thing with him, do they? All they really have to do for assimilating is link him with the Borg collective mind, right? That should be technologically achievable.

Probably didn't want to take a chance on corrupting the data.

 

[Mr Silver]

I'm not saying he had to act like a Comic Book superhero....but lets face facts

*Data is ten times stronger than the average human
*Data has extremely fast reflexes, allowing him to accomplish tasks quicker than most

Those two feats alone, insure that Data would have been able to disable any Borg that attempted to attack him, we even saw indications of this in the first battle with the Borg in FC, while everyone else was improvising by clubbing the Borg with Phaser Rifles because they had adapted, Data was able to easily pick them up and throw them into each other, not to mention easily overpower the Borg who had grabbed Picard

I think given the situation, unless the Borg had quickly deactivated Data, in any normal circumstances he would have overpowered them and headed straight for the Warp Plasma conduits

 

[BillJ]

I think given the situation, unless the Borg had quickly deactivated Data, in any normal circumstances he would have overpowered them and headed straight for the Warp Plasma conduits.

Well... obviously the movie would've been over at that point. But you are right, the writers' didn't present a compelling reason for Data to not go in and bust the warp plasma conduits right away.

 

[Christopher]

Well, let's keep one thing in mind: there is no such thing as "a Borg." The Borg are a collective consciousness inhabiting countless individual drones. A Borg drone is merely one cell within the body of the Borg. So treating drones like individual hand-to-hand opponents is misunderstanding the enemy. They are components of a larger whole acting collectively. In that sense, the opponent facing Data had more mass, more strength, more hands, more eyes than he did, and it had him surrounded.

You might as well assess your ability to avoid being stung by a swarm of bees by pointing out that you're bigger and stronger than an individual bee. While that is technically true, it is also irrelevant, because you aren't facing an individual bee. It's simply the wrong level of analysis to apply to the problem. No matter how easily you can overpower a single drone, you're still not safe from the swarm.

 

[BillJ]

Well, let's keep one thing in mind: there is no such thing as "a Borg." The Borg are a collective consciousness inhabiting countless individual drones. A Borg drone is merely one cell within the body of the Borg. So treating drones like individual hand-to-hand opponents is misunderstanding the enemy. They are components of a larger whole acting collectively. In that sense, the opponent facing Data had more mass, more strength, more hands, more eyes than he did, and it had him surrounded.

You might as well assess your ability to avoid being stung by a swarm of bees by pointing out that you're bigger and stronger than an individual bee. While that is technically true, it is also irrelevant, because you aren't facing an individual bee. It's simply the wrong level of analysis to apply to the problem. No matter how easily you can overpower a single drone, you're still not safe from the swarm.

It's been a while since I've seen First Contact, might have to revisit it once I'm done unpacking.

 

[Mr Silver]

Well, let's keep one thing in mind: there is no such thing as "a Borg." The Borg are a collective consciousness inhabiting countless individual drones. A Borg drone is merely one cell within the body of the Borg. So treating drones like individual hand-to-hand opponents is misunderstanding the enemy. They are components of a larger whole acting collectively. In that sense, the opponent facing Data had more mass, more strength, more hands, more eyes than he did, and it had him surrounded.

You might as well assess your ability to avoid being stung by a swarm of bees by pointing out that you're bigger and stronger than an individual bee. While that is technically true, it is also irrelevant, because you aren't facing an individual bee. It's simply the wrong level of analysis to apply to the problem. No matter how easily you can overpower a single drone, you're still not safe from the swarm.

I neglected to put "drone" after "borg"...thanks for poiting that out

I can somewhat see your point, the Borg however are not quite "Bees" at no point have we seen the Borg manouever in a particulary fast or tactical manner, something that automatically gives them another disadvantage against the speed of Data (Bees are faster than humans because they are lighter, smaller and have the ability to fly)

I'm not trying to say that Data is completely invulnerable, because if he was against an entire Borg ship's compliment, then it would be another story, however the Borg that beamed aboard the Enterprise were few, even by assimilating Enterprise crewmembers they were still a relatively small force (the Enterprise was quick to seal of decks and evacuate its personel to safer areas, along with a rather large Engineering team on the surface, the Borg had the odds stacked against them, obviously they made up for that, by taking over Engineering and capturing various key systems around the Enterprise

 

[Adagio]

If they'd slipped in the line about the shield emitters taking damage, making it impossible for them to remodulate shields, I would have been happier. As with all TNG battles the D's size works against her. The BoP should have been all over her, constantly moving and hitting the D from every angle. Instead they remind me of two sailing ships passing each other slowly and firing cannons, no dynamic manoeuvres or movement.


This annoyed the hell out of me too. Picard may be a diplomat but he's also an officer, trained to fight. Granted the character is in his 60s at the time, but still.

How did Riker fail? The ship was essentially sabotaged, and he put up a good fight I'd say. Yes he lost the Federation Flagship and there would be a hearing, but his quick thinking saved the crew and stopped the Duras sisters (a continual threat to the stability of their Klingon allies, who were also about to get their hands on a weapon of mass destruction). Riker keeps his cool throughout the fight and seems in perfect control. Unlike Harriman he is on a tried and tested ship, with a crew that have proved themselves, and doesn't have a smug Kirk casually strolling around the bridge.
-B

The reason I think Riker failed is because he put all his eggs in one basket. Relying on just a faulty plasma coil, which could have been upgraded or fixed, was a huge tactical mistake.

Also, the Enterprise fired at the Duras' BOP once. Sure, it can make for some great drama, and I know it seems like Starfleet's SOP is to wait for their ship to be smacked around a bit before shooting back, but come on. They have no shields. It makes more sense to start seeing just how long an 80-year-old POS can stand up to a constant stream of fire from a Galaxy-class starship. Shields or no shields, the Enterprise should have gone through that BOP like hot water through nasal tissue.

On another note, it makes sense that the BOP found a way around the shields. It's the only way they stand a chance. I would think it would have been even more dramatic to see the Enterprise fighting back valiantly against an enemy that used guile and trickery to "cheat". The fact that it came down to a technobabble solution is kind of ... deflating.

 

[Christopher]

It makes more sense to start seeing just how long an 80-year-old POS can stand up to a constant stream of fire from a Galaxy-class starship. Shields or no shields, the Enterprise should have gone through that BOP like hot water through nasal tissue.

Why assume that? The BoP may have been older, but it's not like the two ships were designed with equivalent functions in mind. A BoP of any era is a battleship through and through, armed to the teeth and heavily armored. The Galaxy class was designed for exploration, not combat -- a product of an era when the Federation was largely at peace. A Galaxy is basically a university village in space. It's equipped to defend itself when necessary, but it's not meant for waging war.

And really, let's look at the record. The Yamato was lost to a computer virus just a few years out of spacedock. The Odyssey was easily trashed by the Jem'Hadar a few years later. Heck, the Enterprise was technically destroyed by a grazing impact from an old Soyuz-class ship, and only a time loop saved it. These aren't the toughest ships around. Just being bigger and newer doesn't automatically make them stronger or more dangerous, because that's not the sort of thing they were primarily designed to be.

 

[sonak]

A good try, but I don't think so. Kruge openly says in TSFS that the old Constellation-class Enterprise outguns their bird-of-prey "10 to 1." Now even assuming a more advanced bird-of-prey, the Galaxy-class Federation flagship eighty years later should indeed be armed to the teeth and be even MORE of a mismatch with the BOP than it was previously, or the Feds are run by incompetent morons.


You don't lightly arm the jewel of your fleet.

They also have MORE of a reason to be heavily armed than earlier Federation ships because Enterprise-D has families on board.

 

[BillJ]

A good try, but I don't think so. Kruge openly says in TSFS that the old Constellation-class Enterprise outguns their bird-of-prey "10 to 1." Now even assuming a more advanced bird-of-prey, the Galaxy-class Federation flagship eighty years later should indeed be armed to the teeth and be even MORE of a mismatch with the BOP than it was previously, or the Feds are run by incompetent morons.


You don't lightly arm the jewel of your fleet.

They also have MORE of a reason to be heavily armed than earlier Federation ships because Enterprise-D has families on board.

Constitution class.

The eighty year old 'Bird-of-Prey' simply caught the Enterprise with its' pants down in Star Trek: Generations. The first shot passing through the shields uncontested created chaos on the Enterprise and moved Riker into an offensive mode.

 

[Adagio]

A good try, but I don't think so. Kruge openly says in TSFS that the old Constellation-class Enterprise outguns their bird-of-prey "10 to 1." Now even assuming a more advanced bird-of-prey, the Galaxy-class Federation flagship eighty years later should indeed be armed to the teeth and be even MORE of a mismatch with the BOP than it was previously, or the Feds are run by incompetent morons.


You don't lightly arm the jewel of your fleet.

They also have MORE of a reason to be heavily armed than earlier Federation ships because Enterprise-D has families on board.

To build on this further, birds of prey are not battleships. They are more like submarines, which is why they have the cloak. They rely on stealth to sneak up on a target and take it out without them knowing what hit it. The Enterprise can take a lot of punishment due to it's size. In TWOK, we saw how much punishment an unshielded Connie could take, ships 80 years later should have better materials, construction techniques, etc.

Without stealth, a BOP simply cannot compete with a Federation starship outside of a science vessel. We saw how quickly General Chang got taken out as soon as he was discovered and the look of worry on his face as soon as the homing torpedo was launched. And it was cutting-edge tech back then. The best chance the BOP really had against the Galaxy class would be to ram it before they were destroyed, assuming the Enterprise lost it's tractor beam.

 

[Bry_Sinclair]

To build on this further, birds of prey are not battleships. They are more like submarines, which is why they have the cloak. They rely on stealth to sneak up on a target and take it out without them knowing what hit it. The Enterprise can take a lot of punishment due to it's size. In TWOK, we saw how much punishment an unshielded Connie could take, ships 80 years later should have better materials, construction techniques, etc.

So the entire Romulan and Klingon fleets are comprised of submarines? As by the 24th century all their ships are equipped with them. The Galaxy-Class has a large civilian contingent, so obviously Starfleet didn't expect the ship to be going into serious battles, as to endanger civvies like that seem a little nuts to me. I'd agree with Christopher, it's not the size that's important, it's how you use it. The D's primary mission wasn't combat and was built in a time of relative peace in the galaxy.

Without stealth, a BOP simply cannot compete with a Federation starship outside of a science vessel. We saw how quickly General Chang got taken out as soon as he was discovered and the look of worry on his face as soon as the homing torpedo was launched. And it was cutting-edge tech back then. The best chance the BOP really had against the Galaxy class would be to ram it before they were destroyed, assuming the Enterprise lost it's tractor beam.

In the Dominion War, BoP's were on par with the Jem'Hadar strike ships, three of which crippled and destoyed the Odyssey. Chang was worried as a ship under cloak has no shields. They were also facing off against the Enterprise and the Excelsior (Starfleet's most advanced ship at the time). As for ramming the Enterprise-D, the Duras sisters never struck me as the kamakaze type. They wanted to rebuild their forces and reclaim the Empire. Why they didn't use their trilithium weapon on the D?

Also for the comment on Riker putting all his hopes on the plasma coil, every CO has focused on one plan and pursued it at one point or another, and it generally pays off. If the plasma coil could have been sorted, surely the Klingon fleet yards would have done just that and kept the ship in service. It would appear that the problem is one that couldn't be easily fixed.

 

[BillJ]

Why they didn't use their trilithium weapon on the D?

They had no tri-lithium weapon. All they had was the encrypted data left by Soran, which we never saw him transmit the encryption code.

SORAN: This contains all the information you'll need to make a trilithium weapon. ...It's been coded. Once I'm safely to the surface, I'll transmit the decryption sequence to you, ...not before.

 

[FormerLurker]

Why do you people keep saying the BOP is 80 years old when the script states categorically that it is 20?