Issues with the Films

[sonak]

As for Kirk-Martia, OK fair enough. But I think the reaction was more uneasiness because he had been sort of "bait and switched" with who he thought he was kissing.

Also with Bev and Odan, to the poster who said it didn't have to do with Odan's host being female, if you watch the end scene with the female host, BEFORE Beverly turns around to see the new host, she's enthusiastic about seeing who she thinks is "him." Her face clearly falls after she sees who it is. I think there's a subtext there beyond the "frequent changes," of Odan, which it really wasn't, only twice, and one was Riker in an emergency.


As for Enterprise-A, I think it would've made sense if it HAD been an older ship re-named, but isn't the beginning of Trek V, with all the ship malfunctions, supposed to show that it's brand new? Otherwise I don't think it makes very much sense.

 

[kkozoriz1]

What about the crew of the Yorktown? Where would they go to?

There was already a new Yorktown. We saw it being temporarily nullified by the Probe as it passed, but the ship survived. The old one, a Constitution-class starship, had presumably been decommissioned or taken out of service, at least until it was decided to do a similar upgrade on it, as was done for the Enterprise prior to TMP. (Not all ships get a letter designation at the end; that was for very distinguished service.)

One other thing that makes no sense over the course of the movies is Janice Rand. In TMP she is a Chief Petty Officer, then in TSFS she's a Lieutenant Commander / Commander (can't remember which, though granted she only appears in a Spacedock lounge and has no lines), then in TVH she's back to being a Non-Commissioned Officer, and then in TUC she's a Lieutenant Junior Grade. What's up with that?

"Woman in Cafeteria" was a last minute addition by Leonard Nimoy, and the scene was filmed at ILM after principal photography had wrapped. They just grabbed her a pare female uniform jacket that fitted, and it happened to have Commander insignia on it. The scene doesn't rate a mention of Rand in the novelization. We, the audience, might recognise her tears for her old ship, but it's an in-joke for the diehard fans.

Rand's rank in ST IV wasn't defined by that script either. In a "Starlog" interview, Grace mentions how people on set asked her what rank she was now, and she said that she remembered being called "Chief" Rand in TMP - so they decided her new pins in ST IV stood for "Chief Petty Officer". The uniform got a different designation after that.

By ST VI, they decided that Rand's character's position on the bridge needed her to be Lieutenant Commander.

I don't recall seeing the Yorktown nullified. We did see the Saratoga disabled by the probe but the only saw the Captain of the Yorktown on a viewscreen at Starfleet. Perhaps the "makeshift solar sail" didn't work and the crew of the Yorktown was lost. Perhaps they then salvaged the ship and renamed it while passing the Yorktown name to a newer ship, perhaps an Excelsior class.

 

[PsychoPere]

ST:TMP - Aside from the fact that nothing seems to happen in this film, they then spend ages lighting the Enterprise and leaving dry-dock.

Approximately 5 minutes constitutes "ages" these days, eh?

 

[JonnyQuest037]

I saw that as an uncritical acceptance and perpetuation of society's discomfort with homosexuality, and a missed opportunity to show that 23rd-century attitudes have become more accepting.

I really have never read any homophiobia in that scene. I would think that in the 23rd Century, making out with someone else while conveniently not telling them that you're a shapeshifter in a completely different form would still be a pretty scuzzy thing to do. Kirk's reaction is in keeping with that. And it's a bit of humor that the great ladies man unknowingly kissed an monstrous-looking, possibly male alien.

Here's my list:

TMP - The film totally misses the humor, adventure and camaderie of the TV series and presents a Kirk & Spock who are very tough to like at times. The crew is simply following clues for too much of the story, instead of being more active in finding a solution. The uniforms are blander than they should be.

TWOK - It would've been nice if Saavik had been explicitly identified as a Vulcan-Romulan hybrid. That would've prevented them from making her a lesser Spock clone in the sequels. The moving bloodstain on Kirk's shirt. Plotholes like the Reliant not noticing a missing planet in the Ceti Alpha system.

TSFS - Kirstie Alley did not return as Saavik. No Carol Marcus. The Grissom and Excelsior crews are portrayed as comically incompetent to make the Enterprise crew look better. The "Enterprise is 20 years old" line could've easily been changed to "decades old" to please both casual & hardcore fans alike.

TVH - Leonard Roseman's score is not the best. Some of the humor gets a little too broad at times. The Gillian Taylor character should have stayed in the 20th Century.

TFF - Weak story. Too campy by far. The Klingons villains are too generic and played-out by this point. Shatner does not direct himself especially well and turns in his hammiest performance.

TUC - Lacking a little of the big epic feel that the crew's final adventure should have. Valeris' uniform error. Kirstie Alley could not return as Saavik to provide her character an unexpected ending.

GEN - Gives Kirk a death not worthy of his character. Doesn't do enough to exploit the clear chemistry between Shatner & Stewart. The Data emotion chip subplot transforms the character too far away from what he was in the TV show. The Enterprise crash looks like an obvious miniature.

FC - The Zephram Cochrane character is rather broad and doesn't have much in common with the guy from Metamorphosis. Lt. Hawk needs more development before his death.

INS - Too damn unmemorable.

NEM - Too much a bad retread of TWOK.

 

[Therin of Andor]

I don't recall seeing the Yorktown nullified. We did see the Saratoga disabled by the probe but the only saw the Captain of the Yorktown on a viewscreen at Starfleet.

Correct. Yorktown was nullified offscreen, but definitely nullified by the Probe.

Perhaps the "makeshift solar sail" didn't work and the crew of the Yorktown was lost. Perhaps they then salvaged the ship and renamed it while passing the Yorktown name to a newer ship, perhaps an Excelsior class.

With all of Earth's machinery and facilities now nullified by the Probe, when was there time for Spacedock to build or reconfigure a whole new Yorktown, or even locate and tow the old one home, so fast after hearing that the solar sail had failed and the whole crew had died? In any case, as we see in the movie, once the Probe passes by again at the end, all the lights in Spacedock come back up. So ships aren't destroyed, just temporarily without power.

Nimoy's intention with this film was to make a more light-hearted film where no one dies. Bit of a downer if you kill off a whole ship's crew just to be able to rename their ship Enterprise-A. Surely, if a whole crew was killed due to the Probe disaster, it would become Yorktown-A.

 

[Christopher]

I really have never read any homophiobia in that scene. I would think that in the 23rd Century, making out with someone else while conveniently not telling them that you're a shapeshifter in a completely different form would still be a pretty scuzzy thing to do. Kirk's reaction is in keeping with that.

The 23rd century of Star Trek is fictional. As I said, what bothers me is how the scene resonates with present-day prejudices. The vehemence of Kirk's disgust makes me uncomfortable, not in the context of an imaginary 23rd century, but in the context of the real world in which the film was made and released.

TWOK - It would've been nice if Saavik had been explicitly identified as a Vulcan-Romulan hybrid.

I think their reasons for deleting the reference were sound. The intended idea was that Saavik was more emotional because of her Romulan genes, but if you think about it, that's nonsense. Vulcans and Romulans have essentially the same genetics, differing only in culture. And Vulcans are inherently extremely emotional, which is why they need the discipline of logic in the first place. So to say that a Vulcan who's "half-Romulan" would automatically be more emotionally volatile is just ridiculous. (Just as ridiculous as blaming Spock's emotional control issues on his "human half"; again, if we're talking genetics, Vulcans are inherently more emotional than humans.)

Now, if they'd had the opportunity to do as Vonda McIntyre did in her novelization and explain Saavik's emotionalism as a result of having spent her formative years on a Romulan colony that descended into hellish survivalism, that would make more sense, because it's about nurture rather than nature. But as I said, a movie has to focus on the story it's telling and doesn't have a lot of time for sidebars like that. The only thing they would've said in the movie had the lines been left in was that Saavik was volatile because of her Romulan blood. And the filmmakers wisely recognized that that didn't make sense per se, so they cut it out.

Plotholes like the Reliant not noticing a missing planet in the Ceti Alpha system.

Oh, don't get me started on the gaps of logic and coherence in TWOK. Like Khan's people being twentysomethings after being stranded as full-grown adults fifteen years earlier, or being uniformly Aryan when they were multiethnic in "Space Seed."

TSFS - Kirstie Alley did not return as Saavik.

I'm one of those who prefers Robin Curtis, the writing of the character notwithstanding.

The "Enterprise is 20 years old" line could've easily been changed to "decades old" to please both casual & hardcore fans alike.

Not to defend it, but the line was meant as an homage to the fact that Star Trek was nearing its 20th anniversary at the time the film was made.

GEN - Gives Kirk a death not worthy of his character.

I think it's very worthy of his character. He goes out defending lives. My favorite part is when Picard barely saves him from death on a rickety bridge -- and then Kirk unhesitatingly goes right back onto the same bridge to get the remote. It's so casual that it's easy to overlook, but it's a profoundly Kirkian moment. He just barely escaped the jaws of death, and he climbs right back into them without a second's pause because he has lives to save. Nothing could be more worthy of Kirk than that.

 

[kkozoriz1]

I don't recall seeing the Yorktown nullified. We did see the Saratoga disabled by the probe but the only saw the Captain of the Yorktown on a viewscreen at Starfleet.

Correct. Yorktown was nullified offscreen, but definitely nullified by the Probe.

Perhaps the "makeshift solar sail" didn't work and the crew of the Yorktown was lost. Perhaps they then salvaged the ship and renamed it while passing the Yorktown name to a newer ship, perhaps an Excelsior class.

With all of Earth's machinery and facilities now nullified by the Probe, when was there time for Spacedock to build or reconfigure a whole new Yorktown, or even locate and tow the old one home, so fast after hearing that the solar sail had failed and the whole crew had died? In any case, as we see in the movie, once the Probe passes by again at the end, all the lights in Spacedock come back up. So ships aren't destroyed, just temporarily without power.

Nimoy's intention with this film was to make a more light-hearted film where no one dies. Bit of a downer if you kill off a whole ship's crew just to be able to rename their ship Enterprise-A. Surely, if a whole crew was killed due to the Probe disaster, it would become Yorktown-A.

We don't know exactly how much time passes at the end of the movie. It could be a few weeks between the splashdown in the bay and the trial and even longer after that before they get on the new ship.

If you're without power in a spacecraft, you are dead. It may take some time for the air to go foul but it will. Same with the heating and cooling. Was returning power to the ships an effect of the probe moving out of range or was it something that it was deliberatly doing to them? Were Saratoga and Yorktown restored to power at the same time as Spacedock or when the probe moved away from them? Who knows?

Starfleet would have a pretty good idea where Yorktown was since they were talking to them on the viewscreen and they know that they had just intercepted the probe that they were tracking. Trace the line back and there's the ship.

 

[Zeppster]

TMP: Too slow. If they cut the boring space scenes were they go through V'Ger It may have been about 80% better and a movie that was about an hour and half instead of 3 hours or whatever it was.

II: A planet blowing up and changing and orbit just doesn't happen. And you would tell that the number of planets wasn't right if it could happen. Did they just learn not to count to 6? The rest of the film was amazing.

III: Destruction of Enterprise and the fact that there was no real Search for Spock. We knew where he was almost the entire movie and even when David and Saavik couldn't find him they bumped into him the next scene. About the Enterprise getting destroyed, at the start of the film you wanted to see the Enterprise prevail because the stupid admiral said the ship was done. Instead we get to see it destroyed. It really hurt the scenes earlier in the film when we saw the Enterprise kick the arse of the brand new ship.

IV: The new Enterprise basically being like the old Enterprise. I wish they would have gotten a newer ship instead of an obvious older ship they just renamed Enterpise(which becomes more obvious in the next film)

V: Everything. Mostly that it's basically a bad 2 hour TV episode.

VI: A skilled linguist that needs a Klingon dictionary to communicate. SHE'S A SKILLED LINGUIST THAT HAD BEEN IN STARFLEET FOR A LONG TIME! How can she go through those years not knowing Klingon a villain they faced a ton over the years. This is really the biggest issue I have with it.

G: The only thing I didn't like was the Enterprise B captain in the first part. But the Generations part of the movie is a disaster and really boring. There are so many scenes that don't really do anything for the story. And something we always wanted as TNG fans, Data getting emotions is treated like a joke. But also the plot about Picards family dying never resolves because the story doesn't really match how it resolves his recent death. Also the TNG crew just isn't strong enough for the movies IMO. TOS had the advantage of having 3 main guys that were strong and some good back ground characters. TNG doesn't have those 3 strong main guys. Picard and Data just aren't strong enough and the rest of the crew just isn't strong at all.

FC and I: Look at the last couple of sentences above. Also these episodes were average TV episodes, but bad movies. Also on FC, Borg Queen pretty much destroyed the Borg to me. Taking her out of the movie would have changed nothing in this film.

NEM: Pretty much all of the ending. Mostly Data's death. This really could have been handled better instead of him getting destroyed. There was little emotion in him getting destroyed. Just like Spock's death paid off with the interaction between Kirk and Spock. There wasn't that interaction here that would make his payoff work. Really everything else about the movie is pretty solid.

Star Trek: Red Matter enough said.

 

[PsychoPere]

TMP: Too slow. If they cut the boring space scenes were they go through V'Ger It may have been about 80% better and a movie that was about an hour and half instead of 3 hours or whatever it was.

The Director's Edition is 2 hours and 12 minutes, not remotely 3 hours.

 

[Christopher]

Actually the theatrical cut is 2 h 12 m. The DE is 2 h 16 m. Although it trims some of the excess like the V'Ger flyover, it restores more character scenes.

The "3 hours" reference probably comes from the TV cut, which is 2 h 23 m but was aired in a 3-hour block with commercials.

 

[Zeppster]

I was sarcastic about the length. It just seems like 3 hours.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

I really have never read any homophiobia in that scene. I would think that in the 23rd Century, making out with someone else while conveniently not telling them that you're a shapeshifter in a completely different form would still be a pretty scuzzy thing to do. Kirk's reaction is in keeping with that.

The 23rd century of Star Trek is fictional. As I said, what bothers me is how the scene resonates with present-day prejudices. The vehemence of Kirk's disgust makes me uncomfortable, not in the context of an imaginary 23rd century, but in the context of the real world in which the film was made and released.

Still don't see it. Kirk looked surprised and maybe a little distressed, but not actively repulsed. I certainly wouldn't call it "vehement disgust." And if we're talking real world context, Nicholas Meyer and Denny Martin Flynn both had strong connections to the theatre world. It's very difficult for me to imagine homophobia on either of their parts.

TWOK - It would've been nice if Saavik had been explicitly identified as a Vulcan-Romulan hybrid.

Now, if they'd had the opportunity to do as Vonda McIntyre did in her novelization and explain Saavik's emotionalism as a result of having spent her formative years on a Romulan colony that descended into hellish survivalism, that would make more sense, because it's about nurture rather than nature. But as I said, a movie has to focus on the story it's telling and doesn't have a lot of time for sidebars like that. The only thing they would've said in the movie had the lines been left in was that Saavik was volatile because of her Romulan blood. And the filmmakers wisely recognized that that didn't make sense per se, so they cut it out.

In my mind, the Romulan/Vulcan physiology and the Vonda McIntyre backstory are synonymous. Sorry I didn't make that clear. And I much prefer the Romulan/Vulcan idea because it makes Saavik more unique. If she's a full Vulcan, she's really only going to be a less interesting echo of Spock, as she was in TSFS and TVH (IMO, of course).

I'm one of those who prefers Robin Curtis, the writing of the character notwithstanding.

I find her very wooden in the part, but to each his own.

The "Enterprise is 20 years old" line could've easily been changed to "decades old" to please both casual & hardcore fans alike.

Not to defend it, but the line was meant as an homage to the fact that Star Trek was nearing its 20th anniversary at the time the film was made.

I know. But it doesn't work in the context of the history we'd been given before that. Your "you know how bad I am with numbers" in-joke in Mere Anarchy was cute, though.

GEN - Gives Kirk a death not worthy of his character.

I think it's very worthy of his character. He goes out defending lives. My favorite part is when Picard barely saves him from death on a rickety bridge -- and then Kirk unhesitatingly goes right back onto the same bridge to get the remote.

Nice observation, Christopher. The part that bugged me about it was that it was his own weight that brought the bridge crashing down on top of him. I walked out of the theatre and said to my friends, "So basically, if Kirk had done a few more situps, he would have survived?"

 

[Sky]

In my mind, the Romulan/Vulcan physiology and the Vonda McIntyre backstory are synonymous. Sorry I didn't make that clear. And I much prefer the Romulan/Vulcan idea because it makes Saavik more unique. If she's a full Vulcan, she's really only going to be a less interesting echo of Spock, as she was in TSFS and TVH (IMO, of course).

Why? Spock is not a full Vulcan. And the full Vulcans we've seen - Sarek, T'Pring, T'Pau - are ver different to each other and to Spock.

(I do agree with you that the McIntyre backstory makes Saavik much more interesting.)

Nice observation, Christopher. The part that bugged me about it was that it was his own weight that brought the bridge crashing down on top of him. I walked out of the theatre and said to my friends, "So basically, if Kirk had done a few more situps, he would have survived?"

Ouch. I've never really noticed that.

 

[Therin of Andor]

The part that bugged me about it was that it was his own weight that brought the bridge crashing down on top of him. I walked out of the theatre and said to my friends, "So basically, if Kirk had done a few more situps, he would have survived?"

Hence the announcement, "Bridge on the captain."

 

[JonnyQuest037]

And I much prefer the Romulan/Vulcan idea because it makes Saavik more unique. If she's a full Vulcan, she's really only going to be a less interesting echo of Spock, as she was in TSFS and TVH (IMO, of course).

Why? Spock is not a full Vulcan. And the full Vulcans we've seen - Sarek, T'Pring, T'Pau - are ver different to each other and to Spock.

I think the Romulan/Vulcan emotional conflict that the Saavik of TWOK had echoed Spock's Human/Vulcan emotional conflict, but in a different way. Kirstie Alley's Saavik was obviously stuggling to govern her passions, much like Spock was, but unlike Spock, she was not in denial of them and did not wish to purge them. When that aspect of the character was taken away in TSFS and TVH, there wasn't much left to play.

I find that the actors who've best played Vulcans (Leonard Nimoy, Mark Lenard, Celia Lovsky, Arlene Martel, Kim Catrall, Zachary Quinto) are able to convey the cool veneer on the surface and yet subtlety hint at the emotions still bubbling underneath. The ones who don't do as well (Robin Curtis and several of the actors who were cast as Vulcans on TNG) just read their lines in a flat, robotic monotone. Besides, we've seen lots of full Vulcans both before & since TWOK. Why not try something different and mix it up a little?

But, hell, Leonard Nimoy directed Curtis into the performances I disliked so much, so what do I know? Who knows? Maybe it was a conscious decision to cut back on the TWOK characterization so she wouldn't be competing with Spock for the affection of the fans.

 

[Adagio]

GEN: Generations was essentially a disappointment. The stupid holodeck promotion ceremony that replaced the re-entry jump by Kirk. Data became obnoxious as soon as his emotions chip was put in. The flagship of the fleet fought an 80-year-old bird of prey to a draw (both destroyed). Picard getting his butt handed to him so badly by Soren, that it barely registers as a pause across a bridge. Kirk getting killed for a civilization no audience even cared about (that's what made it so disappointing. The film did not give us a chance to care about the civilization. Also, I don't remember anyone telling Kirk about this civilization. All Picard told Kirk is that they need to stop Soren from destroying a star).

Riker still ends up being a Commander instead of a deserved demotion to Lt. Commander. That was a huge disappointment when I saw there were no repercussions to his abysmal failure at Viridian III. He was worse than Harriman.

 

[Christopher]

GEN: Generations was essentially a disappointment. The stupid holodeck promotion ceremony that replaced the re-entry jump by Kirk.

No such replacement. The orbital skydiving scene was intended to open the movie; it was replaced with the shots of the champagne bottle drifting through space under the main titles. The holodeck ceremony came later -- right after Kirk "died" on the E-B, in fact -- and was always part of the film.

 

[kkozoriz1]

Kirk getting killed for a civilization no audience even cared about (that's what made it so disappointing. The film did not give us a chance to care about the civilization.

That's a problem I had with XI. It was aimed at people who were new to Star Trek and for whom Vulcan was practically meaningless. There was about as much emotional commitment to NuVulcan as there was to Alderaan in Star Wars. Basically, it was destroyed just to give the bad guy some street cred.

 

[Ssosmcin]

I'm talking about the attitude of the filmmakers, their decision to have the reaction played as one of disgust. I saw that as an uncritical acceptance and perpetuation of society's discomfort with homosexuality, and a missed opportunity to show that 23rd-century attitudes have become more accepting.

Well, to be fair, Martia didn't turn into "some guy". She/he/it became a big creature. Male, female, who knows? We don't even know what Martia's true form was. If the chick I was just kissing transformed into something big and lumbering, I'd probably be a little turned off too. Especially if I just realized the "hot chick" was just an act. So it's not as if there was a prejudice toward gays; it was a prejudice toward big lumbering aliens. In Star Trek's case, that might actually be worse. Maybe her true form was that little girl. Kirk may be dealing with being a possible pedophile. THAT would be justifably creepy.

Anyway, I consider Kirk's sudden bigotry toward Klingons to be a bigger deal. Sure, a Klingon killed his son, but he had his revenge/retribution against that guy. So to hate all Klingons because of what one guy did makes Kirk a racist. Think of it in terms of color: if I, a white guy, had my son murdered by an African American, and decided to hate all blacks because of it, I'd be a racist. I'd be condemning a race instead of the individual responsible. Kirk and Scotty were the worst and Klingons didn't even cause Scotty any harm.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Kirk and Scotty were the worst and Klingons didn't even cause Scotty any harm.

Which is why JM Dillard starts her ST VI novelization with a devastating Klingon attack on a Federation facility, and Carol Marcus's life is in the balance during the canonical events of the movie. She and Kirk had become romantic partners again.