Re: Isn't it time we realize Rick Berman was the genius of the ST we l
Scotty was an alcoholic. Big deal.
Scotty was an alcoholic. Big deal.
Isn't it time we realize Rick Berman was the genius of the ST we love
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Re: Isn't it time we realize Rick Berman was the genius of the ST we l
Hello. Welcome to the Internet.
Hello. Welcome to the Internet.
Re: Isn't it time we realize Rick Berman was the genius of the ST we l
"B movie" is a little harsh, but I've seen people mention the production quality before.
Imagine how much worse it could have been if Paramount had scrapped the TMP sets.
Although, part of me wonders what it would have looked like if Meyer had the money to have had new sets, Enterprise model, etc., and if that may have complimented his "Hornblower in space" vision even better.
"B movie" is a little harsh, but I've seen people mention the production quality before.
Imagine how much worse it could have been if Paramount had scrapped the TMP sets.
Although, part of me wonders what it would have looked like if Meyer had the money to have had new sets, Enterprise model, etc., and if that may have complimented his "Hornblower in space" vision even better.
Re: Isn't it time we realize Rick Berman was the genius of the ST we l
Can Berman Trek still be considered "modern" if it's been off the air for almost ten years?
Abrams-Trek would now be modern Trek, but I feel Berman-Trek isn't quite old enough to be classic Trek. Maybe recent-Trek? I feel old
Can Berman Trek still be considered "modern" if it's been off the air for almost ten years?
Abrams-Trek would now be modern Trek, but I feel Berman-Trek isn't quite old enough to be classic Trek. Maybe recent-Trek? I feel old
Re: Isn't it time we realize Rick Berman was the genius of the ST we l
To use a Doctor Who metaphor, Rick Berman is the John Nathan-Turner of Star Trek.
Personally, I love most of the Trek produced under his purview (well, I love most of Trek in general): it created a bunch of moments I consider iconic parts of my childhood. I don't get the desire to utterly bash him with no thought to the impact he's had. Did he stay too long? Maybe, and franchise fatigue is a thing too. Personally, I'd still take a hell of a lot of Berman's Trek over Abrams' Trek as superior examples of Sci-Fi and superior examples of characterisation. But that's just me, and chances are I'm about to get called a ****ing idiot. But whatever.
To use a Doctor Who metaphor, Rick Berman is the John Nathan-Turner of Star Trek.
Personally, I love most of the Trek produced under his purview (well, I love most of Trek in general): it created a bunch of moments I consider iconic parts of my childhood. I don't get the desire to utterly bash him with no thought to the impact he's had. Did he stay too long? Maybe, and franchise fatigue is a thing too. Personally, I'd still take a hell of a lot of Berman's Trek over Abrams' Trek as superior examples of Sci-Fi and superior examples of characterisation. But that's just me, and chances are I'm about to get called a ****ing idiot. But whatever.
Re: Isn't it time we realize Rick Berman was the genius of the ST we l
It sure is!
It sure is!
Re: Isn't it time we realize Rick Berman was the genius of the ST we l
Everyone has their own tastes and there's nothing wrong with that. But, for me, the Berman years seemed to have no vision other than try to cling to Roddenberry's.
Are season's three and four of TNG very, very good? Absolutely. But after that, I've hit a wall in each and every Berman season. To the point that they become unwatchable and go on my shelf and collect dust. It doesn't mean they didn't hit it out of the park every now and then (I love Enterprise's "Impulse" for example), but largely the shows and movies got to a point where they were unwatchable for me.
The more years that pass, the less and less I find myself watching the Berman series. I've been watching The Original Series and The Animated Series far more than the four spinoffs combined.
Everyone has their own tastes and there's nothing wrong with that. But, for me, the Berman years seemed to have no vision other than try to cling to Roddenberry's.
Are season's three and four of TNG very, very good? Absolutely. But after that, I've hit a wall in each and every Berman season. To the point that they become unwatchable and go on my shelf and collect dust. It doesn't mean they didn't hit it out of the park every now and then (I love Enterprise's "Impulse" for example), but largely the shows and movies got to a point where they were unwatchable for me.
The more years that pass, the less and less I find myself watching the Berman series. I've been watching The Original Series and The Animated Series far more than the four spinoffs combined.
Re: Isn't it time we realize Rick Berman was the genius of the ST we l
Trek became stale under Berman. Instead of creating fantasy and being exciting, it became a business like any other, and it showed. Even Michael Westmore's makeup became dull and tiresome. I can imagine him like the Dunkin' Donuts guy getting up every morning, "Got to make the Klingons."
Trek became stale under Berman. Instead of creating fantasy and being exciting, it became a business like any other, and it showed. Even Michael Westmore's makeup became dull and tiresome. I can imagine him like the Dunkin' Donuts guy getting up every morning, "Got to make the Klingons."
Re: Isn't it time we realize Rick Berman was the genius of the ST we l
Mid Trek perhaps. Or Gen-X Trek, though that sounds even worse.
Can Berman Trek still be considered "modern" if it's been off the air for almost ten years?
Abrams-Trek would now be modern Trek, but I feel Berman-Trek isn't quite old enough to be classic Trek. Maybe recent-Trek? I feel old
Mid Trek perhaps. Or Gen-X Trek, though that sounds even worse.
Re: Isn't it time we realize Rick Berman was the genius of the ST we l
Insurrection had the bones of a good story and a decent movie. It's just that Berman wanted a softer, more cuddly film to counteract the darkness of First Contact. Had the focus of Insurrection been far more on the hanging out of Starfleet's dirty laundry a la DS9's In the Pale Moonlight, Starfleet politics, and Picard's actual insubordination to protect the Baku, it would've been a better, more thoughtful, more complex movie. And it would've been longer than the stinking 99 mins we got.
In many ways, Insurrection works for me as a film purely because of its contrast in tone to First Contact, but as a standalone feature, it's way too light and fluffy, and I can only really blame Berman for that.
A lot of people have jumped on the anti-Berman bandwagon over the years. I've been one of them. But I think longer term, his enormous contribution to Star Trek will be more valued. Most of TNG's best episodes would probably never have happened under GR's stewardship.
Insurrection had the bones of a good story and a decent movie. It's just that Berman wanted a softer, more cuddly film to counteract the darkness of First Contact. Had the focus of Insurrection been far more on the hanging out of Starfleet's dirty laundry a la DS9's In the Pale Moonlight, Starfleet politics, and Picard's actual insubordination to protect the Baku, it would've been a better, more thoughtful, more complex movie. And it would've been longer than the stinking 99 mins we got.
In many ways, Insurrection works for me as a film purely because of its contrast in tone to First Contact, but as a standalone feature, it's way too light and fluffy, and I can only really blame Berman for that.
A lot of people have jumped on the anti-Berman bandwagon over the years. I've been one of them. But I think longer term, his enormous contribution to Star Trek will be more valued. Most of TNG's best episodes would probably never have happened under GR's stewardship.
Re: Isn't it time we realize Rick Berman was the genius of the ST we l
^ Odd Berman said in an interview that it was Piller's idea to go lighter after First Contact. In Piller's book Fade In, he notes that he wanted to show that the Federation was in a better spot than it was during the previous few years. A reference to the Dominion War and First Contact. According to Piller in his book, they talked about doing a Dominion conflict book but Berman did not want to do it.
Piller tried to tell a classic story but it just didn't hook the audience. There isn't anything in INS to make people care. Compare INS to other films with the Natives being displaced by outsiders theme; like Avatar (2009), Pocahontas, Fern Gulley. The only film that rises above the others is Avatar. Because there is more going on than just "evil white man victimizing Natives for their land and resources.
^ Odd Berman said in an interview that it was Piller's idea to go lighter after First Contact. In Piller's book Fade In, he notes that he wanted to show that the Federation was in a better spot than it was during the previous few years. A reference to the Dominion War and First Contact. According to Piller in his book, they talked about doing a Dominion conflict book but Berman did not want to do it.
Piller tried to tell a classic story but it just didn't hook the audience. There isn't anything in INS to make people care. Compare INS to other films with the Natives being displaced by outsiders theme; like Avatar (2009), Pocahontas, Fern Gulley. The only film that rises above the others is Avatar. Because there is more going on than just "evil white man victimizing Natives for their land and resources.
Re: Isn't it time we realize Rick Berman was the genius of the ST we l
TOS Kirk won battles by tricking enemies into thinking he had corbomite aboard and by talking robots into self destructing. In some cases by convincing the enemy to stop fighting.
Abrams Kirk won them by beaming in and shooting people.
Not the same thing.
I didn't find the Abrams "philosophically out-of-sync" with the rest of the franchise. Especially Star Trek: The Original Series.
TOS Kirk won battles by tricking enemies into thinking he had corbomite aboard and by talking robots into self destructing. In some cases by convincing the enemy to stop fighting.
Abrams Kirk won them by beaming in and shooting people.
Not the same thing.
Re: Isn't it time we realize Rick Berman was the genius of the ST we l
We've seen Abramsverse Kirk all of twice. And Jim Kirk (TOS) wasn't shy about using his phaser when necessary.
I didn't find the Abrams "philosophically out-of-sync" with the rest of the franchise. Especially Star Trek: The Original Series.
TOS Kirk won battles by tricking enemies into thinking he had corbomite aboard and by talking robots into self destructing. In some cases by convincing the enemy to stop fighting.
Abrams Kirk won them by beaming in and shooting people.
Not the same thing.
We've seen Abramsverse Kirk all of twice. And Jim Kirk (TOS) wasn't shy about using his phaser when necessary.
Re: Isn't it time we realize Rick Berman was the genius of the ST we l
Very much in agreement. I'm not a fan of Into Darkness, but I did like that we had a movie that questioned Starfleet's mission and purpose, and therefore reified its mission into something a bit more hopeful and focused than assumed by the end thanks to our heroes. It had been done before in other Trek to be sure (as you mentioned, DS9, and also TUC), but the Abramsverse needed something definitive like that for clarification.
I feel the same way that could have been with Insurrection. Heck, it ended up not being an actual insurrection anyway since there was no real gray area for politics, just clear cut bad guys and no sense of prolonged personal conflict. Exploration of morals and philosophy is just as valid as exploring deep space, but Trek movies rarely seem to get that right. At least Into Darkness constantly had nuKirk making mistakes and then paying dearly for each and every one of them, whereas Picard was never in the wrong and thus never had any internal struggle for the audience to grapple with.
I'd agree with Berman not to do a Dominion conflict so as to keep the movies and TV show separate, since they should stand themselves. That's the kind of operational call that I think a good producer should do (of course, if he said there *should* be Dominion, that's his right as well). But I think part of the problem with Berman was this tendency to micromanage; for him, it seemed like it wasn't enough to tell the writers what direction to go, but to modify it to the point where Berman was essentially a writer and thus creative mind himself.
Contrast to season 4 of Enterprise, where he took more of a backseat to creative duties and the show flourished creatively, but he still maintained cohesion of vision and managed the show as usual. In fact, I'd argue that part of the reason why S4 is better received is not just because of Coto taking more leadership, but also that it allowed Berman to focus more on his own production strengths as well, which tend to be administrative.
Very much in agreement. I'm not a fan of Into Darkness, but I did like that we had a movie that questioned Starfleet's mission and purpose, and therefore reified its mission into something a bit more hopeful and focused than assumed by the end thanks to our heroes. It had been done before in other Trek to be sure (as you mentioned, DS9, and also TUC), but the Abramsverse needed something definitive like that for clarification.
I feel the same way that could have been with Insurrection. Heck, it ended up not being an actual insurrection anyway since there was no real gray area for politics, just clear cut bad guys and no sense of prolonged personal conflict. Exploration of morals and philosophy is just as valid as exploring deep space, but Trek movies rarely seem to get that right. At least Into Darkness constantly had nuKirk making mistakes and then paying dearly for each and every one of them, whereas Picard was never in the wrong and thus never had any internal struggle for the audience to grapple with.
I'd agree with Berman not to do a Dominion conflict so as to keep the movies and TV show separate, since they should stand themselves. That's the kind of operational call that I think a good producer should do (of course, if he said there *should* be Dominion, that's his right as well). But I think part of the problem with Berman was this tendency to micromanage; for him, it seemed like it wasn't enough to tell the writers what direction to go, but to modify it to the point where Berman was essentially a writer and thus creative mind himself.
Contrast to season 4 of Enterprise, where he took more of a backseat to creative duties and the show flourished creatively, but he still maintained cohesion of vision and managed the show as usual. In fact, I'd argue that part of the reason why S4 is better received is not just because of Coto taking more leadership, but also that it allowed Berman to focus more on his own production strengths as well, which tend to be administrative.
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Re: Isn't it time we realize Rick Berman was the genius of the ST we l
Berman is... a mixed bag.
I don't hate him as I once did.
But as the man in charge, he has to accept responsibility for the failures if he wants credit for the successes.
I think if he hadn't involved himself so much in the creative aspects, and let those better suited do so while he was the overall shepherd... it would have gone better than it did.
He caused a lot of frustrations; frustrations that made a lot of talented people walk away when they should have stayed.
There are 3 men who've had considerable power and influence over Trek. Roddenberry, Bennett and Berman. Each had their wins and losses. At a certain point, each of the first two was replaced. Berman avoided that fate the longest; perhaps too long. I think after Voyager, they should have given the reigns to someone new. Maybe even earlier than that.
He's not the villain we all used to think he was. But then absence makes the heart grow fonder, and hindsight is 20/20 and all that.
Berman is... a mixed bag.
I don't hate him as I once did.
But as the man in charge, he has to accept responsibility for the failures if he wants credit for the successes.
I think if he hadn't involved himself so much in the creative aspects, and let those better suited do so while he was the overall shepherd... it would have gone better than it did.
He caused a lot of frustrations; frustrations that made a lot of talented people walk away when they should have stayed.
There are 3 men who've had considerable power and influence over Trek. Roddenberry, Bennett and Berman. Each had their wins and losses. At a certain point, each of the first two was replaced. Berman avoided that fate the longest; perhaps too long. I think after Voyager, they should have given the reigns to someone new. Maybe even earlier than that.
He's not the villain we all used to think he was. But then absence makes the heart grow fonder, and hindsight is 20/20 and all that.
Re: Isn't it time we realize Rick Berman was the genius of the ST we l
That's exactly what I was going to say (though I doubt Berman's behind the scenes story will have quite as many dubious moments as JN-T's biography did).
Both men were excellent at the job of actually getting their respective shows made (though over the decadeish they were in charge there were more a few Very Silly Decisions), but weren't creative people and didn't seem to be capable of good judgement when it came to putting someone in charge of running the script side of things.
When they picked right, you got stories that matched the overall quality of the production side of things. When they didn't, you got terrible television, not matter how solidly made (though as fans, no doubt we'll all have our own ideas on who was the best and worst of those people was, personally I'm in the Piller and Behr camp).
Braga is a good example of what I'd consider a poor choice to be in charge of a Trek show. It's easy to forget now, but during TNG his scripts were extremely popular, and he's certainly someone you'd want on staff to do a couple of really weird out there episodes a year to shake things up.
But his style of writing just wasn't what you'd want overseeing every episode, or at least for the sort of show Berman Trek was aiming to be, if they'd have tried for a full on nuts series like Farscape Braga would probably have rocked it.
Once he's in charge the things that might be fun once or twice a season (wacky accidents doing terrible things to the crew, insane temporal anomalies ect) very quickly become tired and bored and the fact he's generally a writer who does more standalone tales (so the crew can be turned into monsters and back in a day with no need to ever mention this again) actually hurt Voyager, a show where the basic format actually required a fairly heavy level of inter-episode continuity.
Mind, that's a flaw in the creation process that pre-dates Braga becoming a show runner, no one there at the start of Voyager seems to have properly thought through the implications of the ship being on this big journey from the other end of the galaxy (it really should have wound up more serialised than DS9, at least Sisko can get in new crewmembers and equipment) and how that would work against what seems to have been a desire to do TNG Redux. And that is Berman's fault.
That's exactly what I was going to say (though I doubt Berman's behind the scenes story will have quite as many dubious moments as JN-T's biography did).
Both men were excellent at the job of actually getting their respective shows made (though over the decadeish they were in charge there were more a few Very Silly Decisions), but weren't creative people and didn't seem to be capable of good judgement when it came to putting someone in charge of running the script side of things.
When they picked right, you got stories that matched the overall quality of the production side of things. When they didn't, you got terrible television, not matter how solidly made (though as fans, no doubt we'll all have our own ideas on who was the best and worst of those people was, personally I'm in the Piller and Behr camp).
Braga is a good example of what I'd consider a poor choice to be in charge of a Trek show. It's easy to forget now, but during TNG his scripts were extremely popular, and he's certainly someone you'd want on staff to do a couple of really weird out there episodes a year to shake things up.
But his style of writing just wasn't what you'd want overseeing every episode, or at least for the sort of show Berman Trek was aiming to be, if they'd have tried for a full on nuts series like Farscape Braga would probably have rocked it.
Once he's in charge the things that might be fun once or twice a season (wacky accidents doing terrible things to the crew, insane temporal anomalies ect) very quickly become tired and bored and the fact he's generally a writer who does more standalone tales (so the crew can be turned into monsters and back in a day with no need to ever mention this again) actually hurt Voyager, a show where the basic format actually required a fairly heavy level of inter-episode continuity.
Mind, that's a flaw in the creation process that pre-dates Braga becoming a show runner, no one there at the start of Voyager seems to have properly thought through the implications of the ship being on this big journey from the other end of the galaxy (it really should have wound up more serialised than DS9, at least Sisko can get in new crewmembers and equipment) and how that would work against what seems to have been a desire to do TNG Redux. And that is Berman's fault.
Re: Isn't it time we realize Rick Berman was the genius of the ST we l
Whoever made the decision, it was a bad one.
First, FC was not a particularly dark film, especially coming after STVI (cold war, racist Kirk) and GEN (death of Kirk, Enterprise destroyed again). After those two, FC was basically a caper movie.
Second, what kind of knuckle-headed producer says "That last film was the biggest hit of the franchise - let's make the next one totally different"?
Whoever made the decision, it was a bad one.
First, FC was not a particularly dark film, especially coming after STVI (cold war, racist Kirk) and GEN (death of Kirk, Enterprise destroyed again). After those two, FC was basically a caper movie.
Second, what kind of knuckle-headed producer says "That last film was the biggest hit of the franchise - let's make the next one totally different"?
Re: Isn't it time we realize Rick Berman was the genius of the ST we l
Just. No.
I did, and it's a patently ridiculous notion. ANY time in ANY field?
Just. No.
Coming in ahead of schedule and under budget is the tail end of the process, meaning you've shot the movie. How the heck does that relate to how you should have spent time before you shot the movie? What you're suggesting requires slingshotting around the sun... and creates a whole mess of paradoxes.
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