Is Voyager Heavily Underrated?
- Thread starter Janeway_74656
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I enjoy your posts Ghislaine. We come from all over the place each with out different backgrounds and tone. It's pretty cool actually.Yes I am!But sometimes, I feel very lonely but fortunately some like Thomas Eugene, who speaks fluently french, encouraged me to post quotes in this language to translate a personal feeling and/or just describe situations which is related to Voyager, of course. So, I do it occasionally when it is relevant.
If you say so
Yes, I do say so. The federation is not ruled by military law. The highest authority in Starfleet answers to the civilian goverment. Starfleet is paid for and belongs to all citizens, most of whom are not members of Starfleet.
You must hate Discovery then given how military it is and how mutiny wins the day?
That may put it too strongly, but you aren't entirely incorrect. However, that part of Janeway's personality can't be described as a flaw: the studio received a lot of hate mail, even death threats, for casting a woman as the lead. It was felt that the best thing to do was to emphasize Janeway's authority.
Even in the military, criminal acts are tried in a court of law and decided by a jury and a judge who's not the head of starfleet. When ONE person holds all powers in such an undisputed way as Janeway does, it's a dictatorship. In any other form of goverment the powers are divided. That's the essence of a non tyrannic goverment..
What??? This has nothing to do with what I said.
I loved her authority and leadership. She was essentially alone, it would be silly to imagine she would be checking in with the Federation. They were not the conditions Voyager was in.
BTW is that what happened? People did not embrace having a woman captain to the point of hating?
Thanks for the compliment Ghost! I do disagree that DS9 is darker, I actually think both Voyager and DS9 are about on equal footing tonally. Yes, more characters die in DS9 but that does not make it darker perse, the storylines and themes of Voyager make it just as dark as DS9 or even Discovery. All Trek shows have plenty of levity and humor peppered in to make them enjoyable, DS9 is not immune to this and it has just as many light and funny moments as Voyager, though both shows have far less than TNG or TOS.
Political is DS9's hallmark though, while I do think Voyager actually has more politics than it is given credit for, look at how it's crew were adversaries at the start. Not trying to be the guy who goes come on Voyager is better, so much as pointing out that amidst all the criticism it got, I think people may be missing a lot of the great subtlety within the show. It may very well be the most subtle of the Trek shows, Tuvok for example seems early on like a mere Spock clone. Then you start to watch Tim Russ perform, you see there is more to the character even by episode 5, than just another Spock. Once they really expanded his backstory you came to understand, he is far from anything we have seen of a Vulcan before. Janeway could seem like Kirk or Picard to start, then once you really watch her, you see that maybe she was a student of their philosophy and how she learned to be the captain she is. It is a really underrated show in terms of the writing for the characters and the performances.
I think it comes across on the surface very much like TOS or TNG, I think that the writers wanted that so they could tell similar stories with vastly different characters. As much as Trek is about Plot, it really is more about how the plot affects the characters, even on TOS during the sillier episodes it was still about what the characters went through. Let's all be honest, we love the stories but are we not all really watching to see how the crew we love performs during these stories?
I think that is why many will simply not give Voyager a real chance, by this time if you have watched TOS, TNG & DS9 you have a love for the crews you know, so when a new one comes along it has to be something spectacular and new. It is why TNG strayed so far from doing anything that close to TOS, except for premise and themes. If you think about it, Enterprise and Voyager are the only other Trek shows to attempt similar premises to TOS and TNG. Discovery and DS9 are both much further away from the kind of style those shows had. I think that may be why so many take issue with Enterprise and Voyager, yes I am an Enterprise fan. I even love the theme song. I am curious what others fans prefer to bring back old characters with new actors, ala the reboot, or make similarly themed stories with a vastly different crew? Both really have their pros and cons, and it is kinda like trying to strike fire twice. "Data, it is to strike lighting." Oh I see sir, well in that case, it would be as if they were attempting to strike lighting a second time.
Political is DS9's hallmark though, while I do think Voyager actually has more politics than it is given credit for, look at how it's crew were adversaries at the start. Not trying to be the guy who goes come on Voyager is better, so much as pointing out that amidst all the criticism it got, I think people may be missing a lot of the great subtlety within the show. It may very well be the most subtle of the Trek shows, Tuvok for example seems early on like a mere Spock clone. Then you start to watch Tim Russ perform, you see there is more to the character even by episode 5, than just another Spock. Once they really expanded his backstory you came to understand, he is far from anything we have seen of a Vulcan before. Janeway could seem like Kirk or Picard to start, then once you really watch her, you see that maybe she was a student of their philosophy and how she learned to be the captain she is. It is a really underrated show in terms of the writing for the characters and the performances.
I think it comes across on the surface very much like TOS or TNG, I think that the writers wanted that so they could tell similar stories with vastly different characters. As much as Trek is about Plot, it really is more about how the plot affects the characters, even on TOS during the sillier episodes it was still about what the characters went through. Let's all be honest, we love the stories but are we not all really watching to see how the crew we love performs during these stories?
I think that is why many will simply not give Voyager a real chance, by this time if you have watched TOS, TNG & DS9 you have a love for the crews you know, so when a new one comes along it has to be something spectacular and new. It is why TNG strayed so far from doing anything that close to TOS, except for premise and themes. If you think about it, Enterprise and Voyager are the only other Trek shows to attempt similar premises to TOS and TNG. Discovery and DS9 are both much further away from the kind of style those shows had. I think that may be why so many take issue with Enterprise and Voyager, yes I am an Enterprise fan. I even love the theme song. I am curious what others fans prefer to bring back old characters with new actors, ala the reboot, or make similarly themed stories with a vastly different crew? Both really have their pros and cons, and it is kinda like trying to strike fire twice. "Data, it is to strike lighting." Oh I see sir, well in that case, it would be as if they were attempting to strike lighting a second time.
Well it was a very bad idea. In every government except a military dictatorship, the military answer to the civilian goverment. As soon as it was clear that the journey would last for many years more than the mission given to Janeway. A civilian governement should have been elected and all great decisions, liek how to ration food, what route to take, whether to traverse borg space or not... what penalty to give to a murderer or wheter to kill Tuvix or not should have been done by the governement, IE a trial by Jury for the Murderer for example. Janeway was out of line in pretty much everything she's done since the two crews decided to work together.
You understand that I said has nothing to do with gender, don't you? It has to do with a military assuming alone all authority. The essence of all democracies/republic is the division of the powers. As soon as ALL powers are in the hands of one person, you have your dictatorship.
I'm not sure of the extent of the reaction against Janeway. I believe it came before the pilot aired. Regardless, Jeri Taylor says they felt they had to make her appear more in command, perhaps to stifle the notion only men could lead.
Not at all, you could not run the ship in those conditions like that, they were trained to be led by a Captain. It may be the size of a city, it may function and live as one, but it closer to a ship at sea than a floating city. There are so many people, and so many things at stake, it is not the same as governing a society on the ground. You are basically faulting the story direction of the show, and that really has nothing to do with Janeway, she may act as a Captain, but she was never acting as a military dictator. Unlike the leaders in real life, she really cared more about the ship and the crew than herself, which made her a perfect fit to lead. She cared about all life, more than her own, that is a leader and what you need in a time of great crisis. Yes, your idea would make a good show, what Janeway did, however, does not make her a dictator. None of the talks at the time had to do with it being more military, in fact, that really never was even mentioned in regards to Voyager. I can agree you make a good point about a show that would be very interesting and in keeping with Treks themes, but in terms of the show and how the Fleet works as we have seen, she did what any other Captain like Picard or Kirk would have done.
Well it really is nice to read an evaluation that weighs up the messages in the various shows and how that resonates. It's constructive.
I have seen the first Series of Enterprise and I DO like it. It's kind of a treat having new Trek that is old Trek
I think in Janeway being female should not require a viewer to approve of the character, so yes of course
It is not a dictatorship under a Captain, and the crew was free to munity at any given time if they disagreed with her. Also given your statement about what makes a dictatorship, then how is Picard and Kirk any different? For all that the Federation does, it does act at times like a military group. There are many storylines that reflect that, they constantly show how those that take power for personal gain or selfish reasons do harm. Janeway took the lead and power, to save her family, which is what most captains think of their crew. Your criticisms are valid in regards to what the federation should be, and how it should operate, but if the other shows do not do that, how can you really fault Voyager for it?
I'm scratching my head a bit too. A ship with rank in essence is not a democracy and isn't set up that way in any version of Trek. It's not a government. I think too it was compounded with the conditions Voyager was in but mention of other Trek... other versions are far more shocking. Yikes Discovery is the worst of them all as far as a military/war theme where a Starfleet Captain or not, dictates what is going to happen.
Maybe that is a theme the writers want us to hold true? Might wins.
It doesn't matter if she's benevolent or not. The Maquis crew for one thing were basically civilians for Voyager, it was not right that they should answer to a military ruler. Chakotay went along with this because the story is unrealistic, it basically a round block forced to fit a square hole. Chakotay and others should have asked for a civilian goverment to be elected, one that would apply federation law and not Starfleet law. Every serious transgression should have been judged by a Judge and jury and not by a unique dictator. Tuvix fate shouldn't have been left in the hands of Janeway influenced by Kes but a case should have been made in front of a jury with Tuvix getting legal representation. In fact there are no legal means they would be allowed to kill Tuvix without his consent since the Federation DOESN'T HAVE THE DEATH PENALTY. It certainly wouldn't have it for an innocent person!!! Anyway, the fact that for seven years Voyager was an undisputed dictatorship is a serious problem to me and a major overlook by the writers.
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