Is Tuvix a real person?

[Guy Gardener]

Actually, Neelix should have had a crisis of Faith like much later when Seven of Nine brought him back from the dead, and Tuvix should have been hiding his katras all over the ship inside people as a steely preparation against the worst happening.

Did Tuvix transcend the religions his parents got off on?

 

[Gov Kodos]

Tuvix was nothing more than Neelix and Tuvok being delusional from their memories being on the same meatware.

We don't know that for sure.

Yes, we do. He said as much at the start that he was both of them. No soul was destroyed here. Tuvok and Neelix got stuck together at the brain by a transporter glitch and the glitch was fixed. Stuck at the ass is no problem for separation, so why is stuck at the meatware in the head any different?

 

[Orphalesion]

We don't know that for sure.

Yes, we do. He said as much at the start that he was both of them. No soul was destroyed here. Tuvok and Neelix got stuck together at the brain by a transporter glitch and the glitch was fixed. Stuck at the ass is no problem for separation, so why is stuck at the meatware in the head any different?

No we don't. He looked rather confused when he said his "I am Tuvok....and I am Neelix" line and he is right in saying so; all that was Neelix was inside Tuvix and all that was Tuvok was in there as well. By the end of the episode he clearly did not agree anymore that he was Neelix and Tuvok but a whole independent person. Biologically speaking people are that meat ware and that's were the potential for ethical dilemma comes in.
If he is a glitch or not...well I see that as "debatable" and find myself leaning heavily towards the "no, he was a genuine sentient being" side of the debate.

If we bring the soul into it... I agree no soul was "destroyed" here, but who says their souls weren't fused into one single soul? He clearly denied to Kes that Tuvok and Neelix existed within him as independent entities (hence nobody being "trapped" either as far as I'm concerned) and he had no reason to lie at that point.
However if we bring souls into it, especially in relation to transporters we open up a whole different can of worms.
Case in point: Thomas Riker. Was Will's soul "split" when Tom was created? Did Thomas develop/receive a soul of his own? Was Thomas a soulless abomination?

I agree however that Neelix should have had a crisis of faith, the way I see it, for a time he had ceased to exist as himself and had been one being with Tuvok, how do you explain that theologically?
Really any sort of fallout from that experience was one of the thing the story really, really needed.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Neelix inherited Tuvix's blueballs, and then probably spent an afternoon getting his right colour back all over.

Tuvok inherited Tuvix's blueballs, and let it ride for another 5 years and change.

...

In truth I think Kes and Neelix were not doing it, but if Kes and Neelix had a PG relationship, why did it seem like Tuvix was so hard done by that she wouldn't relent to a relationship with him if he only wanted what she had been giving Neelix (Friendship plus kissing)?

Logically Tuvix wanted from Kes what Tuvok's wife T'Pel gave Tuvok?

Yup.

No wonder Kes had him killed.

 

[Gov Kodos]

We don't know that for sure.

Yes, we do. He said as much at the start that he was both of them. No soul was destroyed here. Tuvok and Neelix got stuck together at the brain by a transporter glitch and the glitch was fixed. Stuck at the ass is no problem for separation, so why is stuck at the meatware in the head any different?

No we don't. He looked rather confused when he said his "I am Tuvok....and I am Neelix" line and he is right in saying so; all that was Neelix was inside Tuvix and all that was Tuvok was in there as well. By the end of the episode he clearly did not agree anymore that he was Neelix and Tuvok but a whole independent person. Biologically speaking people are that meat ware and that's were the potential for ethical dilemma comes in.
If he is a glitch or not...well I see that as "debatable" and find myself leaning heavily towards the "no, he was a genuine sentient being" side of the debate.

On this we'll have to disagree. To claim as you had that the crew might be delusional rather than him as the episode progresses is absurd.

If we bring the soul into it... I agree no soul was "destroyed" here, but who says their souls weren't fused into one single soul? He clearly denied to Kes that Tuvok and Neelix existed within him as independent entities (hence nobody being "trapped" either as far as I'm concerned) and he had no reason to lie at that point.
However if we bring souls into it, especially in relation to transporters we open up a whole different can of worms.
Case in point: Thomas Riker. Was Will's soul "split" when Tom was created? Did Thomas develop/receive a soul of his own? Was Thomas a soulless abomination?

He's just delusional.

The rest is fiction created for the show. Souls? No.

More interesting to me is Janeway is consistent in her dislike of Collectives. In a sense, that is what Tuvix is, a collective like the Borg. Janeway is putting an end to that collective. If we are to respect Tuvix's individual autonomy, why not the individual that is the Borg Collective (ignoring that Tuvix isn't the threat the Borg are) why is separating one collective (Tuvix) bad, but separating another (Seven from the Borg) good? For Janeway, both need to go.

I agree however that Neelix should have had a crisis of faith, the way I see it, for a time he had ceased to exist as himself and had been one being with Tuvok, how do you explain that theologically?
Really any sort of fallout from that experience was one of the thing the story really, really needed.

The show would have been better to have Janeway do her thing halfway through then play the fallout. That would have been much better drama than the angst over a character that was going to be nixed anyway due to not getting rid of contracted cast.

 

[hux]

By leaving Tuvix she is forcing Tuvok and Neelix to exist in a different way?

True but she had a personal relationship with Tuvok and Neelix so putting them ahead of Tuvix makes sense for her.

Tuvix was entitled to the same rights that anyone in the Federation has, He can't be held responsible the means of his creation. Even you admit he was a sentient being and as such he is entitled to all the rights granted to them by the Federation.

Had this taken place in Federation space, she would have presumably sought the advice of Starfleet and she certainly wouldn't have been so unilateral. There's no doubt she's breaking the law or at the very least, breaching protocols regarding new life but in the Delta quadrant, she's a dictator. She must make the decision. I don't see how you can blame her for choosing her friends over this new life form

So what do we call it when you end the life of a sentient being?

Murder, Manslaughter or accident.

Well Janeway had to activate the transporter so not an accident.

She knew fully what she was doing was wrong, she acted with premeditation. There was no immediate threat to life (so self defence can't be claimed) so it can't be manslaugter.

Which leaves us with murder

So yes I think a jury would convict her.

I think only a jury of twelve philosophers would convict. A regular jury would find the concepts they're dealing with far too abstract to fully grasp. There's no evidence, no body, no murder weapon. Tuvok and Neelix would both defend her actions. You would be convicting her based on your personal philosophical views about sentience

Those who believe that souls exist and come from an ethereal place beyond our realm of understanding might come to the conclusion that she has committed murder but those who believe sentience is a product of the physical world would come to the conclusion that she simply separated two minds functioning as one (merely producing the appearance of individuality)

No wonder Kes had him killed.

Tuvix was in possession of Tuvokian sexual aggressiveness

Kes wasn't ready for full blown staff (sic)

If Tuvix lives, Kes will have to start wearing lingerie and replicating ropes. Janeway knew it too and wasn't about to let that happen

 

[Orphalesion]

On this we'll have to disagree. To claim as you had that the crew might be delusional rather than him as the episode progresses is absurd.

Yes we'll have to disagreeI for my part find it absurd how somebody cannot see how he is an individual.
However from what I saw not everybody continued to treat Tuvix just as Tuvok and Neelix meshed together. We are told (sadly not shown) that he developed his own relationships, the EMH refused to kill his patient against his will and Janeway was visibly shaken by what she had to do.

He's just delusional.

The rest is fiction created for the show. Souls? No.

Again I don't see anybody in that episode as delusional. And you were the one who mentioned souls first, not me.

More interesting to me is Janeway is consistent in her dislike of Collectives. In a sense, that is what Tuvix is, a collective like the Borg. Janeway is putting an end to that collective. If we are to respect Tuvix's individual autonomy, why not the individual that is the Borg Collective (ignoring that Tuvix isn't the threat the Borg are) why is separating one collective (Tuvix) bad, but separating another (Seven from the Borg) good? For Janeway, both need to go.

Interesting, and I agree that the Borg are, in some aspects, similar to Tuvix in that the whole collective can be interpreted as forming a single individual. And I like the idea that his motivated Janeway's thinking. She clearly seemed weirded out by Tuvix, this could be a way of explaining it.

However the huge difference does remain Tuvix does not run around absorbing more people into himself and he was innocent in regards to Tuvok and Neelix losing their individual existences.

That would have been much better drama than the angst over a character that was going to be nixed anyway due to not getting rid of contracted cast.

Agreed there. The story was imho simply too big for one episode; you have to portray the accident, the explanation to what happened, try to make Tuvix relatable to the audience and then show the emotional fallout from the whole experience.
Tuvix done effectively would have opened up similar questions like Data.

I think only a jury of twelve philosophers would convict. A regular jury would find the concepts they're dealing with far too abstract to fully grasp. There's no evidence, no body, no murder weapon. Tuvok and Neelix would both defend her actions. You would be convicting her based on your personal philosophical views about sentience

I agree somewhat, this very thread is the best evidence for that with the opinions ranging all the way from Tuvix being an individual to him being a "glitch" However I guess it would really come down to the philosophies of the jurors.

Tuvix was in possession of Tuvokian sexual aggressiveness

Kes wasn't ready for full blown staff (sic)

If Tuvix lives, Kes will have to start wearing lingerie and replicating ropes. Janeway knew it too and wasn't about to let that happen

Let's be honest if Tuvix lives Kes will have to start sleeping with iron underpants and a taser next to her bed.

 

[MacLeod]

By leaving Tuvix she is forcing Tuvok and Neelix to exist in a different way?

True but she had a personal relationship with Tuvok and Neelix so putting them ahead of Tuvix makes sense for her.

Tuvix was entitled to the same rights that anyone in the Federation has, He can't be held responsible the means of his creation. Even you admit he was a sentient being and as such he is entitled to all the rights granted to them by the Federation.

Had this taken place in Federation space, she would have presumably sought the advice of Starfleet and she certainly wouldn't have been so unilateral. There's no doubt she's breaking the law or at the very least, breaching protocols regarding new life but in the Delta quadrant, she's a dictator. She must make the decision. I don't see how you can blame her for choosing her friends over this new life form

So what do we call it when you end the life of a sentient being?

Murder, Manslaughter or accident.

Well Janeway had to activate the transporter so not an accident.

She knew fully what she was doing was wrong, she acted with premeditation. There was no immediate threat to life (so self defence can't be claimed) so it can't be manslaugter.

Which leaves us with murder

So yes I think a jury would convict her.

I think only a jury of twelve philosophers would convict. A regular jury would find the concepts they're dealing with far too abstract to fully grasp. There's no evidence, no body, no murder weapon. Tuvok and Neelix would both defend her actions. You would be convicting her based on your personal philosophical views about sentience

Those who believe that souls exist and come from an ethereal place beyond our realm of understanding might come to the conclusion that she has committed murder but those who believe sentience is a product of the physical world would come to the conclusion that she simply separated two minds functioning as one (merely producing the appearance of individuality)

No wonder Kes had him killed.

Tuvix was in possession of Tuvokian sexual aggressiveness

Kes wasn't ready for full blown staff (sic)

If Tuvix lives, Kes will have to start wearing lingerie and replicating ropes. Janeway knew it too and wasn't about to let that happen

Evidence the computer records
Weapon the trasnporter

And you can convict without a body. And even you admit she likely broke the law. And it isn't about Tuvok and Neelix, it's about Tuvix a unique lifeform claiming his right to exist, a right which Janeway denied him.

And I think you've hit the nail on the head in a way by saying she put her personal feelings for Tuvok and Neelix ahead of Tuvix could this not be also true for some of the audiance?

Lady Justice is often portrayed as being blind. So you are sitting on a Jury you don't know the people involved and you are shown computer records of Janeway terminating Tuvix's life how would you vote? It's immaterial that action brought back two others, if you take a life even if it saves others unless that person posed an immediate and life threatening danger to others you could still be charged with taking that life.

 

[T'Girl]

However the huge difference does remain Tuvix does not run around absorbing more people into himself and he was innocent in regards to Tuvok and Neelix losing their individual existences.

I would not want to go through a transporter with him, really how do we know he won't keep combining with people he beams with?

And it isn't about Tuvok and Neelix, it's about Tuvix a unique lifeform claiming his right to exist, a right which Janeway denied him.

The alternative would be Janeway denigning Tuvok and Neelix their right to exist.

 

[MacLeod]

Yes but there loss however unfortunate could be put down to a transporter accident. Eerytime they use the transporter they accept the risk no matter how small they might not come out the other end.

 

[hux]

Evidence the computer records
Weapon the trasnporter

And you can convict without a body. And even you admit she likely broke the law. And it isn't about Tuvok and Neelix, it's about Tuvix a unique lifeform claiming his right to exist, a right which Janeway denied him.

I'm talking about evidence that Tuvix was a genuine life form rather than simply a transporter accident that Janeway fixed. Before they convict, they would have to agree that Tuvix was a sentient life form. What is the evidence for that?

Most of the jury would be swayed by two pieces of evidence. The testimony of Tuvok and Neelix and their own personal view on what constitutes sentience. Neither Tuvok and Neelix would say anything to support the claim that Tuvix was a true life form so it would be down to personal beliefs on sentience

I'm sure Janeway's lawyer would strongly play the...." Tuvix was a combination of two people"......card

How could you prove otherwise. Because he asked to live? As has already been discussed, that can easily be interpreted as many things including Tuvok or Neelix feeling a general sense of fear about proceedings and this fear manifesting itself in Tuvix as fearing for what he sees as his life

Lady Justice is often portrayed as being blind. So you are sitting on a Jury you don't know the people involved and you are shown computer records of Janeway terminating Tuvix's life how would you vote? It's immaterial that action brought back two others, if you take a life even if it saves others unless that person posed an immediate and life threatening danger to others you could still be charged with taking that life.

I would vote not guilty.

Specifically because I do not know how one measures sentience. Tuvix asking to live wouldn't be enough for me. In the end, I would probably find the concepts at hand, far too abstract and esoteric for me to fully engage with. I would look at the two people who made Tuvix possible and say, " they're still alive" so how can the material that made Tuvix, be considered dead when it's in front of me?

The only way I could see myself not feeling that way is if I believed that sentience was a spiritual, supernatural form in nature and was something that came from a none physical realm. But even then, it would be touch and go due to the monumentally complex nature of what was being asked of me

 

[Gov Kodos]

Yes but there loss however unfortunate could be put down to a transporter accident. Eerytime they use the transporter they accept the risk no matter how small they might not come out the other end.

Would they be using the thing with an expectation that transporter screw ups will not be fixed? Sorry, we lost your arm, thems the breaks, dude. They came out stuck in one body and were later unstuck. Glitch fixed.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

Yes.

 

[MacLeod]

Evidence the computer records
Weapon the trasnporter

And you can convict without a body. And even you admit she likely broke the law. And it isn't about Tuvok and Neelix, it's about Tuvix a unique lifeform claiming his right to exist, a right which Janeway denied him.

I'm talking about evidence that Tuvix was a genuine life form rather than simply a transporter accident that Janeway fixed. Before they convict, they would have to agree that Tuvix was a sentient life form. What is the evidence for that?

Most of the jury would be swayed by two pieces of evidence. The testimony of Tuvok and Neelix and their own personal view on what constitutes sentience. Neither Tuvok and Neelix would say anything to support the claim that Tuvix was a true life form so it would be down to personal beliefs on sentience

I'm sure Janeway's lawyer would strongly play the...." Tuvix was a combination of two people"......card

How could you prove otherwise. Because he asked to live? As has already been discussed, that can easily be interpreted as many things including Tuvok or Neelix feeling a general sense of fear about proceedings and this fear manifesting itself in Tuvix as fearing for what he sees as his life

Lady Justice is often portrayed as being blind. So you are sitting on a Jury you don't know the people involved and you are shown computer records of Janeway terminating Tuvix's life how would you vote? It's immaterial that action brought back two others, if you take a life even if it saves others unless that person posed an immediate and life threatening danger to others you could still be charged with taking that life.

I would vote not guilty.

Specifically because I do not know how one measures sentience. Tuvix asking to live wouldn't be enough for me. In the end, I would probably find the concepts at hand, far too abstract and esoteric for me to fully engage with. I would look at the two people who made Tuvix possible and say, " they're still alive" so how can the material that made Tuvix, be considered dead when it's in front of me?

The only way I could see myself not feeling that way is if I believed that sentience was a spiritual, supernatural form in nature and was something that came from a none physical realm. But even then, it would be touch and go due to the monumentally complex nature of what was being asked of me

So it's a question of sentience, fortunatnly there is a legal precedent for just this kind of thing from TNG's "The Measure of a Man"

It sits there looking at me, and I don't know what it is. This case has dealt with metaphysics, with questions best left to saints and philosophers. I'm neither competent nor qualified to answer those. I've got to make a ruling, to try to speak to the future. Is Data a machine? Yes. Is he the property of Starfleet? No. We have all been dancing around the basic issue. Does Data have a soul? I don't know that he has. I don't know that I have. But I have got to give him the freedom to explore that question himself. It is the ruling of this court that Lieutenant Commander Data has the freedom to choose.


According to that legal precedent Tuvix it would appear that he has the right to choose to explore that question himself.

 

[hux]

According to that legal precedent Tuvix it would appear that he has the right to choose to explore that question himself.

I get what you're saying but that is based more on the perspective of Janeway not having made the decision to separate Tuvix yet. If we base it on that, then isn't everyone complicit in the murder. They all just stood there and looked down at their shoes as it was happening. Shouldn't the entire crew be convicted

I'm looking at it more from the perspective of...."would she be convicted for murder AFTER the decision has been made"

Based on the criteria and lack of evidence already mentioned, I think she'd probably get away with it (if it is murder then in many ways, it's the perfect murder because the person you killed still exists.......even Columbo would struggle to crack that case)

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

What if she had second thoughts and forcibly smushed Tuvok and Neelix and the orchid back together, would she be their murderer?

 

[Guy Gardener]

Yes. Certainly.

What about a time share?

Alternate weeks?

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

I bet Tom Riker could have demanded that and won.

 

[Melakon]

What if she had second thoughts and forcibly smushed Tuvok and Neelix and the orchid back together, would she be their murderer?

Or, what if Tuvok deftly dodges the attempt? Would Kes allow Janeway to turn Neelix and an orchid into Neechid?

 

[Guy Gardener]

Did you notice that Tom and Will, their beards grew differently?

Or they minutely styled their beards differently.

I was way to old before I realized that beard maintenance was a thing.

"trimming"

There was no one to talk for Will Riker 10 years ago, who would argue that Will Riker 10 years ago was more real and more Riker than either of the shadows demanding to be treated as human beings and Riker in the here and now.

Well that's not true, is it?

Deanna could have spoken up for her Imzadi and finally had a decent explanation for why this thing, this mockery pretending to be Will Riker all these years had never grabbed her ass or tried to drag her into a closet for seven minutes of heaven.

But she didn't.

Dee didn't because Tom Riker had 10 years of ejaculations loaded into the chamber of his lovegun, that with one resounding volley could make up for the last 7 years of Will Riker ignoring her and running around with every other random alien of the week in a skirt.

(Bad Riker!)

Deanna's galloping sex drive kept those boys separated, just like Kes' virginity and abstinence pulled Tuvix apart.