Is Tuvix a real person?

[Cromwell]

Investigations was part of a (mini) season two arc. There was a definite thread going through season two with Tom's malcontent behaviour and Seska as the baddie.

Yes, I should have been more clear. I meant to say that Paris should have stayed off the ship for a while longer.

To pick up a metaphor from the episode itself. If you bake a cake are the milk and flour you used "trapped" inside the cake? Is the cake not a thing? Is it just the combination of its parts?

But what if the milk and flour are sentient and had previously enjoyed a fulfilling and wonderful life before some jackass had turned them into a cake without their permission. Then you "might" argue they were trapped?

To continue the analogy, no such jack-ass should exist (as Tuvok and Neelix were killed in an accident) and the cake would have, also, to be sentient (which you, yourself admit it is).

Would you kill a man to bring two others back to life?

Tuvix wanted to live and it wasn't as if he was responsible for the death of Tuvok and Neelix... he was simply the result of their death.

 

[Starborn Dragon]

I'm not sure if there is such a thing as a unique lifeform.

Here in America what people value most is mindless soulless unthinking conformity.

So how can there be a unique lifeform if we're all made out to be the same as one another?

 

[hux]

Hux>I wish you were close enough that I could shove some cake off to you. we have left over birthday cake. :-) ( I don't like cake)

I don't need cake. You're all the sweetness I need

To continue the analogy, no such jack-ass should exist (as Tuvok and Neelix were killed in an accident) and the cake would have, also, to be sentient (which you, yourself admit it is)

Would you kill a man to bring two others back to life?

No, but I would separate a consciousness back into its original constituent parts (words like kill and murder don't apply as far as I'm concerned. It's not a black and white issue. That's why it's so deliciously discussible)

TTuvix wanted to live and it wasn't as if he was responsible for the death of Tuvok and Neelix... he was simply the result of their death.

We only know for certain that the constituent parts that allowed Tuvix to exist, wanted to live (also known as Tuvok and Neelix) who were demonstrably "not" dead

I'm not sure if there is such a thing as a unique lifeform.

Here in America what people value most is mindless soulless unthinking conformity.

So how can there be a unique lifeform if we're all made out to be the same as one another?

Good call. I blame it on the breakdown of society but mostly, I blame it on those pesky Scooby do kids (if it wasn't for them, I probably would've gotten away with it too)

 

[T'Girl]

We only know for certain that the constituent parts that allowed Tuvix to exist, wanted to live (also known as Tuvok and Neelix) who were demonstrably "not" dead

At no point after the separation did Neelix and Tuvok request to be "recombined." How selfish of them.

Another component of this is Tuvok's family, his wife and children, should not Tuvok's eventual return to them, his ability to return to them, be taken into account?

This isn't just about Tuvix.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

The cake metaphor doesn't work too well since milk and flour are but components of a cake and not cakes in themselves. If you took a red velvet cake and transporter accidented it with a lemon cheesecake and you really wanted that red velvet cake you would look at the resultant vaguely orange and gooey mess and say something has been lost. Not so the flour or milk.

 

[Guy Gardener]

We only know for certain that the constituent parts that allowed Tuvix to exist, wanted to live (also known as Tuvok and Neelix) who were demonstrably "not" dead

At no point after the separation did Neelix and Tuvok request to be "recombined." How selfish of them.

Another component of this is Tuvok's family, his wife and children, should not Tuvok's eventual return to them, his ability to return to them, be taken into account?

This isn't just about Tuvix.

So what if Tuvix had a couple children?

You cannot disintegrate that child's father, and you cannot expect Tuvok or/and Neelix to take responsibility for that child... Well you can, but it's really not that fair.

 

[MacLeod]

I don't mind Janeway. Tuvix was really a "no win" situation. Allowing him continue to exist would have meant giving up on restoring/reviving Tuvok and Neelix, restoring/reviving Tuvok and Neelix meant killing him. And that's why a Tuvix arc would have been very interesting.
Also it was clear that Janeway was quite disturbed by her own action at the end of the episode.

However what we do hear from Tuvix is that he at least considers himself a person independent from Tuvok and Neelix, when Kes specifically asks if he has the feeling that Tuvok and Neelix talk to him o to each other inside him, he denies that was at a point when he himself was still interested in splitting up into Tuvok and Neelix again.
The problem was we never heard how Tuvoka nd Neelix experienced their time as Tuvix. To me more things point as them being Tuvix, instead of being "trapped" inside Tuvix.

Isn't the difference is that Tuvix was created in an accident he had no influence over his creation. Janeway's actions required a conscience decision to terminate his existance, i.e. her actions were premeditated which is murder.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

We only know for certain that the constituent parts that allowed Tuvix to exist, wanted to live (also known as Tuvok and Neelix) who were demonstrably "not" dead

At no point after the separation did Neelix and Tuvok request to be "recombined." How selfish of them.

Another component of this is Tuvok's family, his wife and children, should not Tuvok's eventual return to them, his ability to return to them, be taken into account?

This isn't just about Tuvix.

So what if Tuvix had a couple children?

You cannot disintegrate that child's father, and you cannot expect Tuvok or/and Neelix to take responsibility for that child... Well you can, but it's really not that fair.

That's why they had to kill him quick before he started making real world investments that had to be divvied up.

 

[The Caretaker]

No, because he was part orchid and plants aren't people!

 

[Guy Gardener]

In Star Trek some plants are people.

Sisko had an officer that would "bud".

I'm assuming that that means that he was a plant, but that's not a certainty.

 

[Lipton]

This is why I love Tuvix (the episode, not the so much the character) I don't see it as black or white. Yes, I think Tuvix was a sentient life form but no, I don't believe Janeway murdered him. As I said, Janeway has not destroyed any physical part of Tuvix. Whatever made his sentience real was none the less still dependent on the existence of Tuvok and Neelix (both of whom continue to exist) so unless you believe sentience comes from somewhere else. Somewhere more spiritual then his sentience still lives (but in two separate locations)

How could Janeway be convicted of murder when the thing she is accused of destroying still exists (albeit in a different physical form/s)

It's his personality. Like I said, the combination of their two personalities was starting to lead Tuvix down avenues that neither of his halves had previously considered (nor ever did once separated) and he was becoming less reliant on either of their ways of thinking.

I believe that a whole can be more than the sum of its parts. The part of Tuvix that was more than the sum of his parts was killed when Janeway separated the two.

Also, I've been thinking it over, and I realize now they didn't have to completely kill Tuvix (or leave Neelix and Tuvok dead) after all. They could use their transporter to "clone" his pattern and make a copy of him, then split the original Tuvix into Tuvok and Neelix.

Then, if he didn't get along with the Voyager crew (or it was too awkward, which could very likely happen) they could just set him down on some planet somewhere as they continued on their journey.

 

[Orphalesion]

Isn't the difference is that Tuvix was created in an accident he had no influence over his creation. Janeway's actions required a conscience decision to terminate his existance, i.e. her actions were premeditated which is murder.

That is very true. I wish they would have had proper time to explore all of that. Tuvix was an innocent and I would go so far as to say Janeway didn't quite understand him as a legitimate lifeform, or rather she did not want to, because that would give him rights, she tried to hang on to the idea of seeing him as just a transporter anomaly. And so did a large part of the audience, I'm sure.

If we would have had enough time to get to know, and perhaps even grow to like Tuvix, to really see how he becomes a part of the crew and forges relatonships that are all his own, I wonder how the effect of the story would have been different.
Personally of course I would have chosen two different characters, perhaps Tom and Harry, or Tom and Chekotay, any combination that would have produced a less...freakish appearance to make it easier for the audience to emphasize with "Tarry"/"Chom".

 

[Guy Gardener]

But after you took out the Syphilis, Tuvok would have had a new personality.

Just 4 episodes later, they were willing to kill his personality out of a sense of cleanliness.

And 7 episodes earlier Tuvok was willing to kill every one to keep Logic out of his life.

 

[hux]

So what if Tuvix had a couple children

He didn't even need children. He just needed to be on board long enough for people to see him as an individual rather than just a weird, furry prison for Tuvok and Neelix

Have him on board for just a few weeks and it's a whole new (far more complicated) dilemma for Janeway and the crew.

Isn't the difference is that Tuvix was created in an accident he had no influence over his creation. Janeway's actions required a conscience decision to terminate his existance, i.e. her actions were premeditated which is murder.

But she hasn't destroyed "any" part of Tuvix. She's simply forced him to exist in a different way. I never understand why people use words like murder regarding Janeway's actions. What has she murdered?

The only way I can conceive of such an accusation being valid is if you consider Tuvix's sentience (or soul) to have been created by means other than Tuvok and Neelix. Some kind of spiritual or supernatural explanation for the origin of his nascent self awareness and individuality

It's his personality. Like I said, the combination of their two personalities was starting to lead Tuvix down avenues that neither of his halves had previously considered (nor ever did once separated) and he was becoming less reliant on either of their ways of thinking.

It's that new personality and individuality that convinces me of his unique sentience but by separating him into his original parts, those qualities still continue to exist in Tuvok and Neelix (albeit in subdued or less pronounced fashion) which is why i dismiss the murder charge

 

[Orphalesion]

But she hasn't destroyed "any" part of Tuvix. She's simply forced him to exist in a different way. I never understand why people use words like murder regarding Janeway's actions. What has she murdered?

She did kill him if you interpret it according to gestalt theory. If you see it that way then Tuvix was made out of Neelix and Tuvok, but was something else completely his own. In that vain Neelix and Tuvok had ceased to exist when Tuvix was born, Tuvix ceased to exist when Tuvok and neelix were restored.
That's also the way he seemed to have viewed his own situation from pretty much the very start.

 

[hux]

She did kill him if you interpret it according to gestalt theory. If you see it that way then Tuvix was made out of Neelix and Tuvok, but was something else completely his own. In that vain Neelix and Tuvok had ceased to exist when Tuvix was born, Tuvix ceased to exist when Tuvok and neelix were restored.
That's also the way he seemed to have viewed his own situation from pretty much the very start.

Kill is different to murder. Kill can relate to his unique sentience being ended (which I agree she did) but murder suggests she has destroyed everything of him (which I don't believe she did) She definitely ended a unique personality/consciousness but I still don't see how it can be viewed as murder when the vital, component parts that provided him with existence, continue to exist

In other words. Purely as a legal definition, would a jury convict her of murder? Philosophers might but no, I don't think a jury would

 

[Orphalesion]

I could see a jury conicting her. However until two people are accidentally fused together into a single being and that being is split against his will we won't have a juristic precedent how a court would deal with the person that split them.
No matter how you phrase it, the guy known as Tuvix was destroyed, his components were restored to their old personalities and (possibly) retain his memories, but Tuvix is gone, just like Tuvoka and Neelix were gone after they fused into Tuvix.

The thing is sadly that no analogy quite fits because something like Tuvix is impossible in real life, which is part of what makes it so interesting. It's a truly alien, pure sci-fi (and possibly fantasy) concept, a philosophical thought experiment. What exactly was Tuvix?

 

[MacLeod]

So what if Tuvix had a couple children

He didn't even need children. He just needed to be on board long enough for people to see him as an individual rather than just a weird, furry prison for Tuvok and Neelix

Have him on board for just a few weeks and it's a whole new (far more complicated) dilemma for Janeway and the crew.

Isn't the difference is that Tuvix was created in an accident he had no influence over his creation. Janeway's actions required a conscience decision to terminate his existance, i.e. her actions were premeditated which is murder.

But she hasn't destroyed "any" part of Tuvix. She's simply forced him to exist in a different way. I never understand why people use words like murder regarding Janeway's actions. What has she murdered?

The only way I can conceive of such an accusation being valid is if you consider Tuvix's sentience (or soul) to have been created by means other than Tuvok and Neelix. Some kind of spiritual or supernatural explanation for the origin of his nascent self awareness and individuality

It's his personality. Like I said, the combination of their two personalities was starting to lead Tuvix down avenues that neither of his halves had previously considered (nor ever did once separated) and he was becoming less reliant on either of their ways of thinking.

It's that new personality and individuality that convinces me of his unique sentience but by separating him into his original parts, those qualities still continue to exist in Tuvok and Neelix (albeit in subdued or less pronounced fashion) which is why i dismiss the murder charge

But can't you use the argument

But she hasn't destroyed "any" part of Tuvix. She's simply forced him to exist in a different way. I never understand why people use words like murder regarding Janeway's actions. What has she murdered?

By leaving Tuvix she is forcing Tuvok and Neelix to exist in a different way? Tuvix was entitled to the same rights that anyone in the Federation has, He can't be held responsible the means of his creation. Even you admit he was a sentient being and as such he is entitled to all the rights granted to them by the Federation. So what do we call it when you end the life of a sentient being?

Murder, Manslaughter or accident.

Well Janeway had to activate the transporter so not an accident.

She knew fully what she was doing was wrong, she acted with premeditation. There was no immediate threat to life (so self defence can't be claimed) so it can't be manslaugter.

Which leaves us with murder

So yes I think a jury would convict her.

 

[Gov Kodos]

If Tuvok and Neelix were connected at the ass we wouldn't be having this conversation at all. Just because they were connected at the brain by the transporter screw up, they suddenly can't be separated? There was no murder. No souls were destroyed. The wetware was separated just as if they'd been connected at the ass. Tuvix was nothing more than Neelix and Tuvok being delusional from their memories being on the same meatware.

 

[Lipton]

Tuvix was nothing more than Neelix and Tuvok being delusional from their memories being on the same meatware.

We don't know that for sure. It could have been the Voyager crew who were delusional. The reality was that Tuvix's brain was changing fast into something neither Tuvok or Neelix and he wanted things to stay the course. Said process of change doesn't happen when people are joined at the ass. And even if Tuvix was not a separate sentient being, the procedure was performed against his consent.

Like I said, they could have duplicated Tuvix with the transporter a la Thomas Riker, split one of them into Tuvok and Neelix, then dropped the other Tuvix off on a planet to forge his own path (he likely wouldn't have as strong of a desire to go to the Alpha Quadrant soon) if he didn't get along/was too creepy for the crew.

It's a solution the writers overlooked, not a perfect solution but the best possible one I'm aware of at the moment. Instead of just two living, three live and one dies/has an operation against their consent. That one also has another copy of them to live on.