Is the lack of 'arc' elements in the TNG films a problem?

[BillJ]

I already corrected myself when I went through the script and have to ask again, so what? What do you want to imply, that they are hypocrites or what?

Honestly, like I've said before, I don't give two shits about the Ba'ku or the S'ona. They can exterminate each other for all I care.

They absolutely are hypocrites. They hide behind pacifism and have Picard fight their battle but have no issue whipping out their tech any other time, including the expulsion of their own children.

But my main concern has always been Starfleet's role, long-term. I'll say it one more time, if the Ba'ku aren't moved then Starfleet is on the hook for protecting them as the planet is in Federation territory. If I'm Starfleet, am I interested in protecting six hundred people in the ass end of space? No I am not. Nor am I interested in expending Federation lives protecting the Ba'ku.


So you have three options: protect them, move them or tell them they are on their own.

 

[horatio83]

Obviously you do care as you just complained about the Ba'ku, now even claiming that they used their technology to expulse the Son'a.
For the umptenth time, stick with the story or speculate. If you wanna see them as nasty assholes that's fine with me, I can easily imagine a different movie where they are premodern people instead of hippies. But if we talk about the movie as it is they are the victims and not the violators.


As far as I know the planet is in the Briar Patch and not part of the territory of any major power. The way Dougherty talks about it makes it seem like the middle of nowhere and not like Federation space.
Now the question of how to deal with enclaves in your territory, planets that are not part of the Federation but deep in its territory, would be an interesting one but we talk about what seems to be more of a border region.

The Federation is not obliged to protect anyone, if the Ba'ku want help they can ask.
Nobody wants to move them for the sake of their safety or in order to prevent the Klingons from getting their hands on it. Last time I checked the background of the movie is supposed to the Dominion War and not the long-term relations between the three major Beta Quadrant powers, Feds, Klingons and Rommies.
The Ba'ku are moved for the sake of gaining medical assets and an ally respectively for the sake of being able to live normally again without having to remain on Ba'ku.

But to adopt your long-term perspective, the natural course of action would be to talk with the Ba'ku-Son'a leadership (assuming that they settled their differences) after the incident with Data and ask them whether they want protection from aliens who might want to take the radiation from them. It is also possible that the new Ba'ku-Son'a society wants to move anyway and extract the radiation. It is their decision and if they want help the Feds should help but if they wanna manage on their own the Feds have no right to mess with them.

What you are suggesting, abuse and care at the same time, seems fairly strange to me. Well, not strange, you cannot stand them so you are fine with any violations they have to endure.
But I am not, you cannot move people against their will and claim to care about their security. This is not "Ensigns of Command" or the Cardassian-Federation border with the Maquis, the Ba'ku are not Federation citizens so the Feds have no authority over them.


If you really do not give a shit the answer is simple, follow the PD and stop messing with them. Or be honest like Sisko and say that gaining a dubious ally in the Dominion War is worth this price. But you cannot claim to care about their security when you just care about their wealth. Kissinger or Mother Theresa (or PD-bound Starfleet officers). Or and not and.

 

[C.E. Evans]

Why would the Baku not say "there's an entire planet for you away from us-go somewhere else on it."

But because the premise is so poorly thought out, we get a bunch of primitive pacifists FORCIBLY EXPELLING a group of militants that embrace advanced technology.

Think of the Ba'ku as the Amish. Would they keep around a group trying to destroy their way of life and force them to embrace modern times or would they cast them out?

Assuming they could cast them out, they would, but to take your analogy to the next level, the Baku situation is like the Amish somehow kicking off everyone the North American continent despite having a massive technologically deficit and managing to keep them away for any significant amount of time.

The Amish analogy really stops with the initial casting out, because the actual particulars of what went down during the coup was never revealed. It may very well have been a case that the exiles felt they had no choice but to leave the planet the same way early Vulcans did when they left to form the Romulan Empire.

Years later, the exiles--now the Son'a--decided it was time to come home and dish out some payback.

 

[BillJ]

Obviously you do care as you just complained about the Ba'ku, now even claiming that they used their technology to expulse the Son'a.

I think most folks around here know how I feel about the Ba'ku, the S'ona and that meta-phasic radiation wouldn't be the cure all for the Federation. Just because one doesn't have a stake in or an emotional attachment to a situation doesn't mean they don't have an opinion on it.

For the umptenth time, stick with the story or speculate.

It's all idle speculation.

I think that covers your complaint.

But if we talk about the movie as it is they are the victims and not the violators.

The film has just enough cracks in the foundation that you can see the situation either way. It's all personal interpretation.

As far as I know the planet is in the Briar Patch and not part of the territory of any major power. The way Dougherty talks about it makes it seem like the middle of nowhere and not like Federation space.
Now the question of how to deal with enclaves in your territory, planets that are not part of the Federation but deep in its territory, would be an interesting one but we talk about what seems to be more of a border region.

Dougherty states the planet is in Federation territory. Why else would the S'ona need a partner? They already have the technology built to harvest the rings radiation.

The Federation is not obliged to protect anyone, if the Ba'ku want help they can ask.
Nobody wants to move them for the sake of their safety or in order to prevent the Klingons from getting their hands on it. Last time I checked the background of the movie is supposed to the Dominion War and not the long-term relations between the three major Beta Quadrant powers, Feds, Klingons and Rommies.

Look in the mirror, Admiral. The Federation is old. In the past twenty-four months, they've been challenged by every major power in the Quadrant. The Borg, the Cardassians, the Dominion. They all smell the scent of death on the Federation. That's why you've embraced our offer, because it will give your dear Federation new life

The Ba'ku are moved for the sake of gaining medical assets and an ally respectively for the sake of being able to live normally again without having to remain on Ba'ku.

True. But the by product of partnering with the S'ona is that the Ba'ku are insured to survive as a culture.

But to adopt your long-term perspective, the natural course of action would be to talk with the Ba'ku-Son'a leadership (assuming that they settled their differences) after the incident with Data and ask them whether they want protection from aliens who might want to take the radiation from them. It is also possible that the new Ba'ku-Son'a society wants to move anyway and extract the radiation. It is their decision and if they want help the Feds should help but if they wanna manage on their own the Feds have no right to mess with them.

If the Federation is never involved then the Ba'ku are moved by force to a, possibly, undesirable location and the rings are still harvested.

What you are suggesting, abuse and care at the same time, seems fairly strange to me. Well, not strange, you cannot stand them so you are fine with any violations they have to endure.
But I am not, you cannot move people against their will and claim to care about their security. This is not "Ensigns of Command" or the Cardassian-Federation border with the Maquis, the Ba'ku are not Federation citizens so the Feds have no authority over them.

The Federation council would seem to disagree with your assessment of what they can and cannot do with planets within their sphere of influence.

But you cannot claim to care about their security when you just care about their wealth.

Don't tell me what I do and don't care about. I would care about the security of Federation borders and the lives of Starfleet officers, if it were a real life situation. Moving the Ba'ku and stripping the planet of the radiation ensures that 600 Ba'ku aren't butchered in the night by someone wanting to possess the meta-phasic radiation.

Picard was the one who created the mess. He violated his orders to go to the Goran system and he violated Dougherty's orders not to go into the Briar Patch due to environmental concerns before he ever had a clue what was going on. Picard messed with another commanders mission the same way Crusher did to him in Journey's End. Picard is a starship captain, he's not out their to dictate policy that is for the members of the Federation council. And they decided that the greater good was served by moving the Ba'ku.

 

[C.E. Evans]

As far as I know the planet is in the Briar Patch and not part of the territory of any major power. The way Dougherty talks about it makes it seem like the middle of nowhere and not like Federation space.
Now the question of how to deal with enclaves in your territory, planets that are not part of the Federation but deep in its territory, would be an interesting one but we talk about what seems to be more of a border region.

Dougherty states the planet is in Federation territory.

He actually doesn't.

 

[BillJ]

As far as I know the planet is in the Briar Patch and not part of the territory of any major power. The way Dougherty talks about it makes it seem like the middle of nowhere and not like Federation space.
Now the question of how to deal with enclaves in your territory, planets that are not part of the Federation but deep in its territory, would be an interesting one but we talk about what seems to be more of a border region.

Dougherty states the planet is in Federation territory.

He actually doesn't.

You're right. It is Picard that says it.

PICARD: A planet in Federation space.
DOUGHERTY: That's right. We have the planet.

 

[C.E. Evans]

There are likely many worlds that exist within the confines of the Federation, but aren't member worlds (like unincorporated areas in a county). The Son'a had their harvesting technology, but the Ba'ku world was within the Federation's borders. A partnership.

 

[horatio83]

Moving the Ba'ku and stripping the planet of the radiation ensures that 600 Ba'ku aren't butchered in the night by someone wanting to possess the meta-phasic radiation.

Kidnap somebody for their own good. Are you even listening to the sick crap you write before you post it? What's next, steal, rape and kill for the sake of the victim?
I better do not comment on the rest as it is basically fascistoid. "Always follow order as orders can never be wrong." TNG showed the benefits of thinking about your orders instead of blindly following them often enough.
As Picard points out, the decision of the Federation council is unlawful as it violates the Prime Directive. Whether you like it or not, in a civilized world parliaments and the executive is subject to the law which is in this case the Prime Directive and the obvious crime of kidnapping plus, assuming that the Son'a will put the Ba'ku in a labour camp, make them into slaves or just kill them, assistance in these crimes.

I have nothing more to say on the matter. If you wanna go with rationalizing and defending crimes, go ahead.

There are likely many worlds that exist within the confines of the Federation, but aren't member worlds (like unincorporated areas in a county). The Son'a had their harvesting technology, but the Ba'ku world was within the Federation's borders. A partnership.

There are probably plenty of independent worlds in Federation territory over which the Federation has no authority. Of course the wet dream of the Son'a fans is that the Federation is, like the Son'a, an imperial force that does what it wants, takes it wants and violates whomever it wants ... but thishas obviously nothing to do with the actual UFP.

 

[BillJ]

Two things, horatio83...

One, I'm sure the Federation council is as well versed, if not more so, to matters pertaining to Federation law than Picard is.

Two, the actual UFP you speak of doesn't exist. All you have to do is actually watch Star Trek to know this. I'm starting to doubt that you've seen any of it, including Insurrection.

 

[sonak]

Moving the Ba'ku and stripping the planet of the radiation ensures that 600 Ba'ku aren't butchered in the night by someone wanting to possess the meta-phasic radiation.

Kidnap somebody for their own good. Are you even listening to the sick crap you write before you post it? What's next, steal, rape and kill for the sake of the victim?
I better do not comment on the rest as it is basically fascistoid. "Always follow order as orders can never be wrong." TNG showed the benefits of thinking about your orders instead of blindly following them often enough.
As Picard points out, the decision of the Federation council is unlawful as it violates the Prime Directive. Whether you like it or not, in a civilized world parliaments and the executive is subject to the law which is in this case the Prime Directive and the obvious crime of kidnapping plus, assuming that the Son'a will put the Ba'ku in a labour camp, make them into slaves or just kill them, assistance in these crimes.

I have nothing more to say on the matter. If you wanna go with rationalizing and defending crimes, go ahead.

There are likely many worlds that exist within the confines of the Federation, but aren't member worlds (like unincorporated areas in a county). The Son'a had their harvesting technology, but the Ba'ku world was within the Federation's borders. A partnership.

There are probably plenty of independent worlds in Federation territory over which the Federation has no authority. Of course the wet dream of the Son'a fans is that the Federation is, like the Son'a, an imperial force that does what it wants, takes it wants and violates whomever it wants ... but thishas obviously nothing to do with the actual UFP.

so is moving a village to get to a cure for cancer a "sick, horrible, fascist" war crime to you?

I guess eminent domain is one of the biggest war crimes issues out there today. Better get the UN involved.

And again, no sympathy for the Son'a huh?

is your morality all about property rights and looking pretty?

 

[Titus Andronicus]

I know my response is odd compared to the current discussion but:

I think TNG could have been served with an arc. I'm not quite sure what it could have been, although I think seeing a big screen treatment of a storyline related to the Unification of the Vulcans and the Romulans would have been something.

Or a Q challenge, or series of challenges?

 

[sonak]

I don't think Q works all that well as a big-screen villain. But I think your general idea is a good one. The TOS movies did well with the trilogy, so maybe connecting TNG movies would have worked.

 

[Titus Andronicus]

I don't think Q works all that well as a big-screen villain. But I think your general idea is a good one. The TOS movies did well with the trilogy, so maybe connecting TNG movies would have worked.

Yeah, Q would be difficult. Although I've always felt "All Good Things" would have been a fantastic feature film.


What we really needed was more character growth in the films beyond Data. Maybe Riker should have been in command of Titan to start Nemesis? Hell, perhaps that last TNG film should have had Riker on a different ship, Worf as an ambassador, and Troi with Riker on Titan. Some event forces them all to come together....although I can see fans already complaining that such an idea, especially if tied with the Unification of Romulans and Vulcans, would have been TUC redux.

 

[DarKush]

I don't know if the TNG films needed an arc, though I wish they had ran with some stronger recurring themes. I think Picard's sense of mortality (not his grief) over the realization that he was the last of his line should've been a recurring theme that could've played into the fountain of youth story in INS and the discovery of his clone in NEM. I wish more had been done with that. Personally I would've liked to have seen Picard and Crusher to get together as well, and GEN could've gotten that started with her being his fantasy woman inside the Nexus.

The friendship of Geordi and Data, which was carried over from the show and highlighted in GEN could've been played up more in INS and touched on more than it was in NEM. It should've been Geordi giving Data's eulogy for example.

As for Data, I wish they had kept going with him exploring his emotions instead of allowing him to be able to turn them off at will.

At least with Riker and Troi they followed up on them restarting their relationship from INS, with the marriage in NEM.

With Worf, to some extent, he was a hostage to whatever DS9 was doing with him, so I'm not sure how much of a recurring theme could've done with him.

 

[DarKush]

I don't think Q works all that well as a big-screen villain. But I think your general idea is a good one. The TOS movies did well with the trilogy, so maybe connecting TNG movies would have worked.

Yeah, Q would be difficult. Although I've always felt "All Good Things" would have been a fantastic feature film.


What we really needed was more character growth in the films beyond Data. Maybe Riker should have been in command of Titan to start Nemesis? Hell, perhaps that last TNG film should have had Riker on a different ship, Worf as an ambassador, and Troi with Riker on Titan. Some event forces them all to come together....although I can see fans already complaining that such an idea, especially if tied with the Unification of Romulans and Vulcans, would have been TUC redux.

A TUC redux would've been better than another attempt at Wrath of Khan. I liked the idea of Riker being on another ship and what fan wouldn't have wanted to see the Titan? Also I wish that Worf had been an ambassador in NEM or at least give us dialogue to explain why he wasn't. But a follow-up to Unification would've been great, probably much better than what we got in NEM.