Is the lack of 'arc' elements in the TNG films a problem?

[BillJ]

Note that this is only stupid, idle speculation on my part, as I already said the story did, like all Trek stories, not occupy itself a lot with the background.

It's all idle speculation.

I just don't buy that the Ba'ku were able to quell a revolution and exile those responsible without technology. Then keep them away for a century or more.

 

[C.E. Evans]

I can easily see the Ba'ku as just as morally bankrupt as the S'ona. They failed to mention to Picard that they were in a blood feud with the people they were serving cocktails to nor did they mention they may know who wanted their planet and they sent away their own children, who they had a philosophical divide with, to die.

The Ba'ku did not know who the Son'a were. They certainly didn't recognize them after so many years (and so much physical change). In fact, it was Doctor Crusher who scanned a downed Son'a and discovered that his DNA matched the Ba'ku. It was only then that the Ba'ku learned who the Son'a were.

 

[BillJ]

I can easily see the Ba'ku as just as morally bankrupt as the S'ona. They failed to mention to Picard that they were in a blood feud with the people they were serving cocktails to nor did they mention they may know who wanted their planet and they sent away their own children, who they had a philosophical divide with, to die.

The Ba'ku did not know who the Son'a were. They certainly didn't recognize them after so many years (and so much physical change). In fact, it was Doctor Crusher who scanned a downed Son'a and discovered that his DNA matched the Ba'ku. It was only then that the Ba'ku learned who the Son'a were.

Right you are.

But it still doesn't explain why no one mentioned them when discussing that someone may be trying to take the planet...

 

[horatio83]

Note that this is only stupid, idle speculation on my part, as I already said the story did, like all Trek stories, not occupy itself a lot with the background.

It's all idle speculation.

I just don't buy that the Ba'ku were able to quell a revolution and exile those responsible without technology. Then keep them away for a century or more.

Two words, sonic shower. The Ba'ku town probably stinks worse than a Tellarite mudbath.

Slightly more seriously, but only slightly, as you are actually referring to them being thrown off the planet I think it would be fun to do the story the other way around, with the Ba'ku being the bad guys who actually have some technology and the Son'a being good centralized progressive folks who wanna crush this reactionary feudal society not to exert revenge but to reap the radiation for everybody in the Federation.
In such a case I'd say screw the Prime Directive.

 

[C.E. Evans]

I can easily see the Ba'ku as just as morally bankrupt as the S'ona. They failed to mention to Picard that they were in a blood feud with the people they were serving cocktails to nor did they mention they may know who wanted their planet and they sent away their own children, who they had a philosophical divide with, to die.

The Ba'ku did not know who the Son'a were. They certainly didn't recognize them after so many years (and so much physical change). In fact, it was Doctor Crusher who scanned a downed Son'a and discovered that his DNA matched the Ba'ku. It was only then that the Ba'ku learned who the Son'a were.

Right you are.

But it still doesn't explain why no one mentioned them when discussing that someone may be trying to take the planet...

Nobody knew the connection between the Ba'ku and the Son'a except for the Son'a. Ru'afo was actually counting on the Ba'ku not recognizing them.

 

[horatio83]

The Son'a knew, the Ba'ku probably guessed. But, tieing it into my speculation about symbolic violence, perhaps neither side wanted to say who the other side is not merely for strategical considerations but also because they made a radical cut in the past which implies to some degree a social denial of the other group.

Talking about radical cuts, does anybody else prefer Lily to Anij? She didn't just make stupid hummingbirds slow down (I am sure Doctor Crusher has plenty of substances which can do that trick) but challenged Picard and was so much better for him.

 

[C.E. Evans]

The Son'a knew, the Ba'ku probably guessed.

I think it was a case that when the exiles left, they left as Ba'ku and their gradual metamorphosis into Son'a occurred years later and light-years away.

All the Ba'ku knew was that there was an exiled group of theirs out there somewhere, but were surprised to discover they had become the Son'a.

 

[horatio83]

The Ba'ku are aware that the planet prolongs their life so they know that younger generation who went away some time ago has to return one day.
When the duckblind mission went wrong they probably guessed that it has something to do with them.

 

[C.E. Evans]

The Ba'ku are aware that the planet prolongs their life so they know that younger generation who went away some time ago has to return one day.

I wouldn't jump to that conclusion. Earth and Vulcan both had groups that left for various reasons and didn't return.

When the duckblind mission went wrong they probably guessed that it has something to do with them.

I doubt it, especially not after finally meeting the Son'a and thinking of them as aliens.

 

[horatio83]

Sure, perhaps they also guess that they simply die earlier without the influence of the planet.

 

[C.E. Evans]

Sure, perhaps they also guess that they simply die earlier without the influence of the planet.

They probably thought they'd revert to aging normally as the Ba'ku originally did.

I don't think they could have guessed the dramatic lengths the exiles would go to stay young.

 

[sonak]

No, you're mistaken, because what I said was that the Ba'ku had the right to decide who lived on their planet. At the time, they exiled fellow Ba'ku who had tried to take it over. By the same token, the Ba'ku reserved the right not to be kicked off their world.

so again, what you're saying is that it's OK that the Baku forcibly expelled a group off of an entire planet that was mostly empty, but it's just a huge ethical violation for those who were wronged to come back and remove those who exiled him, and in doing so, provide huge medical benefits to billions.

Pay attention. What I actually said (more than once) was that the Ba'ku had the right to govern their own planet. Now, we don't have to like how they govern it, but it's not a requirement for us to like it. Still, it's their world and any attempt to take it from them without their permission can only be regarded as invasion and theft.

if that's your position, then fine. I just think it's a silly and pretty arbitrary one.

I think it's silly to say that the Ba'ku should allow people to take over their planet that they don't want to.

Again, I'm not saying they should have let them take over. I'm questioning why they had to kick them off an entire planet that was sparsely populated. They did that knowing they were exiling them to die. And you're cool with that, because the movie is poorly written and is forcing you to defend a position that is silly on an intellectual level.

Why would the Baku not say "there's an entire planet for you away from us-go somewhere else on it."

But because the premise is so poorly thought out, we get a bunch of primitive pacifists FORCIBLY EXPELLING a group of militants that embrace advanced technology.

 

[horatio83]

You might wanna point out that you just speculate. The movie does not make it clear whether they were thrown out of the village or the planet and neither does it reveal whether the Ba'ku have actually been aware of the effects of the planet upon them back then. The movies does neither reveal how people who live in a premodern society get their hand on spaceships, how these people can be forced off the planet and how they can prevented from settling wherever they want. It does neither reveal why they did not simply try to grab power again after they got their hands on superior technology.

And why? Because it doesn't matter! INS is not poorly written, the background stuff is just as always not totally thought through. There are Trek movies with a far worse background, e.g. the last two ones with the screwed up Khan copies.

 

[C.E. Evans]

so again, what you're saying is that it's OK that the Baku forcibly expelled a group off of an entire planet that was mostly empty, but it's just a huge ethical violation for those who were wronged to come back and remove those who exiled him, and in doing so, provide huge medical benefits to billions.

Pay attention. What I actually said (more than once) was that the Ba'ku had the right to govern their own planet. Now, we don't have to like how they govern it, but it's not a requirement for us to like it. Still, it's their world and any attempt to take it from them without their permission can only be regarded as invasion and theft.

if that's your position, then fine. I just think it's a silly and pretty arbitrary one.

I think it's silly to say that the Ba'ku should allow people to take over their planet that they don't want to.

Again, I'm not saying they should have let them take over. I'm questioning why they had to kick them off an entire planet that was sparsely populated. They did that knowing they were exiling them to die. And you're cool with that, because the movie is poorly written and is forcing you to defend a position that is silly on an intellectual level.

It has nothing to do with me being "cool with it," it just that it very much matches real-world examples of extreme measures being taken by a society to rid themselves of something they perceive as a threat. Intolerance is not a new concept and isn't something limited to Humans.

The Ba'ku were within their rights to remove a group that tried to take over their planet (just like Humans were within their rights to fight against Khan and his followers during the Eugenics Wars). Whether or not the lengths the Ba'ku took to rid themselves of those upsurpers were fair or not is another matter entirely and isn't what I'm talking about. That's just a done deed.

Why would the Baku not say "there's an entire planet for you away from us-go somewhere else on it."

But because the premise is so poorly thought out, we get a bunch of primitive pacifists FORCIBLY EXPELLING a group of militants that embrace advanced technology.

Think of the Ba'ku as the Amish. Would they keep around a group trying to destroy their way of life and force them to embrace modern times or would they cast them out?

 

[horatio83]

Of course they would not but the movie did not really depict this conflict as the Ba'ku are nicer than the Amish.
Of course I do not dislike the Amish, they are honest fundamentalists which you can detect via the lack of envy; all the hypocritical Evangelical fundamentalists are preach about the wickedness of sex and then go to prostitutes are obviously envious. But their society is premodern and thus pretty rigid. Quitting is probably pretty hard and trying to change your own rigid society will lead to violence of some sort.
So it would be more realistic if the Ba'ku were worse fellows than they actually are, if they weremore like the Amish, like the premodern folks they actually are and not like the "after we got rid of technology we have so much time for realizing ourselves" hippie community. That only works for some times, once you do it for real life becomes actually harder and you have less leisure.

 

[bullethead]

Why would the Baku not say "there's an entire planet for you away from us-go somewhere else on it."

But because the premise is so poorly thought out, we get a bunch of primitive pacifists FORCIBLY EXPELLING a group of militants that embrace advanced technology.

Think of the Ba'ku as the Amish. Would they keep around a group trying to destroy their way of life and force them to embrace modern times or would they cast them out?

Assuming they could cast them out, they would, but to take your analogy to the next level, the Baku situation is like the Amish somehow kicking off everyone the North American continent despite having a massive technologically deficit and managing to keep them away for any significant amount of time. There was nothing stopping the Son'a from coming back and landing on the other side of the planet once they got into orbit (however they managed that in the first place) or going off into space, making a biological or chemical weapon that specifically affected the Baku, and deploying it.

 

[BillJ]

You might wanna point out that you just speculate. The movie does not make it clear whether they were thrown out of the village or the planet and neither does it reveal whether the Ba'ku have actually been aware of the effects of the planet upon them back then.

They had been there two centuries when the S'ona left. There were still original settlers alive in the movie. I'm pretty sure they knew the effects of the planet when they ran off the S'ona.

Plus, I'm curious how the Ba'ku make the connection between the planets rings and their longevity without any technology?

 

[horatio83]

Sure, they have technology. So what? Their choice is to not use it in their everyday lives.

You can try as hard as you want to, the Ba'ku are not the bad guys. I never saw them harm one person in the movie and in the end the Son'a are greeted when they return home peacefully.

 

[BillJ]

They never state that they know anything about the radiation. Once again you claim that they are liars who secretly maintain technology in order to paint them in a bad light instead of simply acknowledging what is actually the case, that the background is, as always, not much dealt with and inconsistent if you take a close look.

ANIJ: There's an unusual metaphasic radiation coming from the planet's rings. It continuously regenerates our genetic structure. You must have noticed the effects by now.

They talk with authority about things they should have no idea about. Like Data's positronic matrix. He had no obvious damage, so how do they know what's under the hood?

 

[horatio83]

I already corrected myself when I went through the script and have to ask again, so what? What do you want to imply, that they are hypocrites or what?