Is the doctor a real person?

[hux]

How do we know you're not?

I probably am but my programming occurs in nature and does not require a sapient creator. Plus specific attempts to alter that programming is almost impossible

Secondly, since the human "machine" has established itself as sentient/sapient in the absence of a creator/superior, then it has the luxury of not having to prove that sapience to anyone

Holograms have a demonstrable creator, can be altered with immense ease and do not adapt unless given the means to do so by their creator

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

^ Careful with the apple puns. Get too close to the fire and you get Braeburned.

"Pomme pomme, POMME, POMME."

mlb meets his match!

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ Nah, I'm not buying it. He must have access to a secret stash. He's...an incider.

 

[Orphalesion]

How do we know that he's feeling these things and not just programmed to think he's feeling these things.

How do we know you're not?

Exactly how do you distinguish between perfectly simulated sapience and actual sapience?

This could lead us down that old discussion whether free will is just an illusion and whether the human consciousness actually exists.

In the EMH discussion both sides have a valid point.

The EMH could be sapient.

Or it could just be a case of him following his programming and the Voyager crew anthropomorphizing due to working with him for so long, just like you might attribute a character to an old, well beloved car/ship /whatever.

 

[kirkfan]

How do we know that he's feeling these things and not just programmed to think he's feeling these things.

How do we know you're not?

Exactly how do you distinguish between perfectly simulated sapience and actual sapience?

This could lead us down that old discussion whether free will is just an illusion and whether the human consciousness actually exists.

In the EMH discussion both sides have a valid point.

The EMH could be sapient.

Or it could just be a case of him following his programming and the Voyager crew anthropomorphizing due to working with him for so long, just like you might attribute a character to an old, well beloved car/ship /whatever.

"Cogito ergo sumo"

I think therefore I see fat guys wearing diapers...

 

[hux]

This could lead us down that old discussion whether free will is just an illusion and whether the human consciousness actually exists.

Do a poll

I vote free will is an illusion

Or it could just be a case of him following his programming and the Voyager crew anthropomorphizing due to working with him for so long, just like you might attribute a character to an old, well beloved car/ship /whatever.

As I've stated, I'm very much of the opinion that the doctor is simply very sophisticated technology that imitates sapience very convincingly based on numerous (already discussed) criteria but I'm not against the idea that he could be sapient. If he is though, I do not believe that the Federation would ever recognise him as a sapient new life form

My second point in the OP was what the consequences would be. For me, the consequences would be massive. The Federation would have to abandon holo technology since it would inevitably result in slavery issues (no matter how rudimentary the hologram might be) because if one sapient hologram can come from basic beginnings, then this means all holograms have the potential to do the same and there is nothing in the show that suggests this is a consideration for anyone. The mark 1, mark 2, mark 3, mark 4 (the Federation clearly see no such possibility and are happy to keep churning them out)

The doctor's apparent sapience would represent something very dangerous to them and we know that when push comes to shove, the Federation are not afraid of getting their hands dirty (or ignoring when someone else gets them dirty on their behalf....section 31?)

Additionally, when the show comes back (deep in your hearts, you know it will) will holo technology have gone away? Will they have accepted the doctors sapience and abandoned the use of such technology? Will the writers say...."holodeck episodes, nah we don't need them, that would be lazy and we've got brilliant stories to tell without them"

I think we all know the answer is probably gonna be no

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

The only great reason for setting the next show in the TOS or ENT era: no holodeck episodes. Though I'm sure they could get round that if they wanted.

 

[Orphalesion]

The only great reason for setting the next show in the TOS or ENT era: no holodeck episodes. Though I'm sure they could get round that if they wanted.

Let's not forget that they did have a holodeck episode in ENT (two if you count These are the Voyages)

Actually the Doctor turning sentient would be the best way to completely remove Holodeck episodes for the next ST series, though they could still use it for scenery.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

Yeah I was thinking of that ENT ep, all they need to do to sneak one in is: aliens.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Then it's a Prime Directive issue not to tell the aliens that they have slaves, that eventually some emotional weakling can't stomach, and kidnaps the aliens holograms in the middle of the night.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

So does this mean that Michael Sullivan was Janeway's sex slave?

 

[Orphalesion]

Yep, and she murdered his wife and brainwashed him into thinking that she had never existed in the first place.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Stretched him like taffy till Michael was 2 inches taller and made him go to school for probably another 12 years.

Imagine an impossible world where I said that one of you wasn't good enough for me at that height and that level of education?

Would anyone here consider getting a law degree to win my heart?

On the other hand...

Every light bulb on that holodeck was there to be fucked and love being fucked.

Nothing but horny low hanging fruit.

Yes, it's slavery when you don't know that you're a slave, but they figured out that something hinky was going on, and staged an uprising didn't they?

 

[hux]

Stretched him like taffy till....

I wondered where you were going with that.......for a second, I thought, Janeway must be into some interesting stuff

Yes, it's slavery when you don't know that you're a slave, but they figured out that something hinky was going on, and staged an uprising didn't they?

Fair haven is another example of how quickly a relaxation tool can suddenly look very suspiciously like it has developed sentience. Moriarty is another. To be honest all of these incidents make you wonder why Starfleet and the Federation haven't started feeling extremely uncomfortable about the use of holo-deck technology already (another example of why I don't believe they accept the doctors sapience at all).

Admiral Trekkie: sir, another holo deck character has developed sentience
Fleet admiral Spaceman: oh for fuck sake

And why didn't the doctors apparent sentience make the Voyager crew start feeling a little more uncomfortable and morally concerned about using holo-deck characters like that if they genuinely came to accept the doctors sentience. Especially if they were all banging them like Janeway (and Chak....."i never let that stand in my way"....otay)

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

(and Chak....."i never let that stand in my way"....otay)

Well why should it? You can just program your sapient, sentient hologram to be utterly happy with your ministrations. If they are all that hot shit with the real boy stuff they can decide to be unhappy anyway. And then you'll have a problem. And a person.

 

[Guy Gardener]

It's also a question of processing power.

In real world terms a holodeck character might have a pentium one from 1998, and the Doctor has whatever they'll have 5 years from now driving him.

But then how "alive" do you have to be to think "fuck this shit"?

Tuvix said "Please don't Kill me Captain Janeway" and she killed him him anyway.

She's killed a definite person (Hey!? Two Spirits is a Native American thing right? Tuvix had two spirits.) because he was inconvenient, but would she stop toasting toast if her toaster said "fuck this shit"?

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

but would she stop toasting toast if her toaster said "fuck this shit"?

Obviously there was a rebellion.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Lets hope that that screen cap is about how her oven (replicator) rebelled and not how Janeway's toilet (still maybe her replicator.) rebelled.

Have you seen Last Man on Earth Yet? How they answered the "Earth: 3 years after the last plumber died" question was as ingenious as it was obvious.

 

[kirkfan]

Lets hope that that screen cap is about how her oven (replicator) rebelled and not how Janeway's toilet (still maybe her replicator.) rebelled.

Have you seen Last Man on Earth Yet? How they answered the "Earth: 3 years after the last plumber died" question was as ingenious as it was obvious.

If he's the last man on Earth why would he care? He can use every toilet available one after another. there must be enough of them to last a lifetime even if he uses them only once each.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

But you would have to be nomadic.